lulay

When the term 'patriarchy' is used, it usually is believed to really mean within established religions, ie monotheism, but these two links i link you up to here show that patriarchy's influence shows up in areas you may not have imagined it would

no doubt what is shown here 'may' cause controversy...who knows. i have one tale about this. i had come across this website owned by a magickian. He seemed to be a cool character who devoted his site to asking uestions. some questions were outlandish, and challenging, YEt he seemed to have this cool way of dealing with everything thrown at him, till that is i shared with him one of the links--i am gonna share with you here--'Matrifocus', where author reveals patriarchal bias in Qabalah etc. all of a sudden he changed and became more and more hostile, till he cut off further communications....!
another funny story. i was in contact with a famous magickian. i mentioned same site, and gave him the webaddress. could he download it? could he hell. how ironic,,,this magickian couldn't download a website....heh

the other link compliments it...called 'breeding devils in chaos' he reveals the homophobic attitudes of many magickal systems

it is worthy to note that within the confines of the patriarchy misogyny and homophobia are usually bedfellows

anyway, here are the links. let me know your responses, good OR evil or inbetween and...hehe

Matrifocus, Gender Equity in Hermetic Qabalah http://www.matrifocus.com/BEL02/myturn-qabalah.htm

Breeding Devils in Chaos: Homosexuality & the Occult
http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/flsh_breeding.html

Heathen Dawn

How does one pronounce “magickian?”

Yet another reason to drop that silly K.

lulay

think of it as silent K then it'll go away

Heathen Dawn

In “magick,” certainly. But in “magic[k]ian” the issue is not of noise vs silence but of palatal fricative vs velar plosive. Viz:

magician = ma-JISH-n /məˈdʒɪʃn̩/
magickian = ma-JICK-yan /məˈdʒɪkjən/

(the IPA transcription is not guaranteed to show properly)

lulay

quite heather, i could talk to you about Ks all day, but this thread isn't really about that at all. have you read the links yet? what do you thin(k)?

Heathen Dawn

I apologise.

The links resonate with me in some way. I touch neither Qabbalah nor homosexual magic. The main reasons are Qabbalah is Jewish stuff and I’m allergic to that (my sojourn in Orthodox Judaism did that), and I’m straight. It’s not surprising to find degradation of the feminine in the Qabbalah, as its Jewish breeding-ground is virulently male chauvinist. As for adapting Wicca for gays and lesbians, I know it can be done, but I find it so strained...

lulay

...closely enough. ie., in the 'Matrifocus' link, author explain that Qabalah is referring to the "hermaetic" version of the Jewish Kabbala--though i agree with you that Judaism also is fervently patriarchal. but how ever she is making a distinction also. she also assets that Qabalah has influenced the Western Mystery Tradition per se, themselves influenced by the Eastern Esoteric Tradition. so, in other words, this patriarchal bias runs throughout
......

about the second link about homosexuality in relation to the Goddess and her Son/Lover the Horned God...? i dont know what all the fuss is about. the fuss is rather a stilted, stiff imagination regarding those images. For myself i quite like that imagery......Dionysos was also a horned god, son of Goddess, and was effeminate, hinting at his homosexual/bisexual ambiguity
the mindset that excludes Gays because of that imagery has a very limited notion of ambiguity. it pretends not to, but really is seeing things in black and white. not having insight into ambiguity

sorry to keep using that word, but cant find a better one

ambiguity. there, i've said it again

Heathen Dawn

I have.

The ancient Greeks may have had no problem with homosexuality, as it was an acceptable custom in their societies. Now Wicca, one of its essentials is male-female polarity. But neopaganism attracts a great number of gays (half the males in neopaganism, or so my HPS said), so it’s no surprise that Wicca too has been adapted. I’d be tempted to say it’s not Wicca, but then I’d be like Shven, who says of my own version that it can’t be called Wicca because it doesn’t have apostolic succession. So I won’t.

lulay

"male-female polarity".....i can see how that can be taken to mean an actual 'man' and 'woman' right?

the reason i love the image of Dionysos, is precisely his ambiguity. his effeminacy. not only has this been honoured in the deepest recesses of 'Greek'myth, but also with Native American 'Berdaches'...ie., Gay and effeminate men who were seen to embody this ambiguity, and were honoured instead of persecuted as did the black&white belief systems

grey is a charming colour of many subtle hues......the alternative is the manly man who dont cry and the whiney female who keeps breakin her ankle

Shven

Can I ask where you got this apostolic succesion bit from? I've never said any such thing.