Abel Stable

Well, what are some examples? You don't have to explain them, just give some examples of prayer physically causing something.

Rational BAC

I don't do personal religious stuff as a general rule---------since it smacks of evangelism----which I think is very outmoded--like 2000 years (or at least 100 years) outmoded.

Just a friendly suggestion from this old phart. If in serious difficulty, try a prayer--got nothing to lose anyway, you know---If there is no God then you have wasted a few seconds of your time. If there is a God then---Lord knows what might happen.

Just try a prayer when in very serious difficulty and you think your life is falling apart, and just see what happens. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Or maybe not.

Shades of Pascal's wager again. (Which I know is very unpopular these days---------smart dude in his day though)

DamagedGoods

lol...it's probably just the result of similar experiences with people practiced in the art of excusing themselves via prayer.

DamagedGoods

That reminds me of Dr. Dean Edell's remarks about 'alternative' medicinal claims; the alternative treatment will cause one of three things to happen: (1) the condition will get better, (2) it will get worse, or (3) it will remain the same. The explanations are: (1) See! It works! (2) We just didn't start the treatment early enough, or you did it wrong, and (3) Well, it doesn't work for everybody; western medicine is like that too, you know.

So I offer an analogous response: Prayer will either cause something to (1) happen, or (2) not happen. The explanations are: (1) See! Prayer works! (sometimes), (2) It must not have been God's will, or you weren't praying hard enough or with the right attitude.

Actually I do have something to lose: taking time for prayer takes away from time I could be using to find a real solution. Case in point: I was in a fundie cult, and after 10 years of fundieness I couldn't avoid the realization that things were not going well (in too many ways to count). I prayed and prayed, and they just got worse. Then one day, I stopped praying and started doing something different: educating myself about cults. Six months later my wife and I were out, and 3 years after that we have crushed the cult into the ground by actually doing something. If I'd kept stubbornly praying, we'd still be there, and so would at least a hundred other people.

My personal take is that a fundamental change in mindset is required to consider prayer as a valid 'course of action.' If I am praying, it is as if I have decided that there is nothing more I can do, and therefore I will stop seeking real solutions. If I may use a computer example, if I decide to run the 'prayer' program, it takes up resources that could better be used by the solution-finding processes that run in the background. That's just me; maybe other people's thought processes work differently though.

Duck!

I actually once got into this exact argument with my brother (a sometime devout Catholic) and my father (a devout mass goer but some semi-Catholic when it comes to believing Papal Doctrine and official church teachings).

We were arguing the free will defense and I pointed that if they accepted the free willl defense that human afflicted misery on earth is some sort of acceptable price to pay for free will, then on what basis is it acceptable for God to intervene.

Doesn't god interfering in human life somehow negate or seriously inhibit our free will. If free will causes misery X and God answers a prayer to nullify or negate situation X, hasn't God somehow interfered in our oh so important free will.

My question to father and brother : How does god interfering in human daily life to relieve the evil that is the price to pay for free will not somehow negate and reduce the effects of free will that they so sanctify?

Answer from brother : Well, God doesn't interfere in the real world, he merely performs miracles in our minds. He doesn't actually interfere in our free will. He merely alters our minds.

My reply : But doesn't that still negate free will. If he alters your mind in such a way as to affect our minds, won't that cause us to behave in a specific way that interferes with the free will decision we would have made?

Answer : No you see, God doesn't change our free will, he just alters the mind of the person praying?

Me : But won't that alter their behaviour to make them do something else?

Answer : Ah no you see, he just alters our EMOTIONS, not the actions we perform.

Me : But if our emotions are altered, won't we behave in a different manner than we would have if our emotions weren't tampered with?

Answer : Ah no, he doesn't alter our behaviour. Merely changes our minds and emotions when we pray to him,

Me: But my point still stands - altering our emotional and behavioural state causes to behave in a way we wouldn't have. He was affected our free will by making us behave in a different manner,

Answer : Ah no you see. We still behave in the same way we would have. It's just that our emotions and personalities have been altererd by God for the better.

Me: But how can God alter our mental state without changing our resulting behaviour.

Answer : Etc.

Me: Etc.

The opinion of both these "Catholics" was that when you pray to God for help , he simply changes for emotional and mental but doesn't cause you to behave any better or worse. Your free will is still is still unaffected, i.e. God can alter your mind in radical ways, but you'll still do exactly what you would have done.

Which resulted in my question : So what's the fuckin' point? Why would alter your brain because you prayed, if you'd still do the same thing regardless of whether not you'd prayed? He somehow alters your brain in a positive way that leads you to behave in the exact same manner you would have?

How the fuck do you argue with people you are so blind to the obvious implications of what they're clearly saying?


Duck!

Abel Stable

Does this mean you don't want to give examples? They don't have to pertain to you personally - just instances that you feel are authentic.

I prayed regularly for years when I was younger - and was very dedicated and faithful...I no doubt had a "personal relationship with god". I've never found prayer to have any discernable effect. The benefit of prayer for me was having someone to talk with when alone (which is why christians need to really push the god is love slant of the Bible). Even then, petitioning god seemed like a weird idea. I always thought: "well, god gave me a life & a planet that contains everything I need-- why should I ask for more?" It's like winning the lottery twice & immediately demanding more money.

DamagedGoods

That's an interesting way of looking at it. You will most likely be quoted the next time I have to discuss prayer with somebody.

AspenMama

For most of my life, I've been an atheist-- except for a very short period of a few months when I was heading into teenagedom. I tried prayer-- it never surprised or aided me-- what has got me through life has always been thinking of solutions to my problems and finding the best way to roll with the punches and land on my feet.
Well I know you don't want an answer-- but I can't resist. What if you pray to the wrong god and piss off the real true god(s)/goddess(es)? Then what you have to lose is your fabled bliss-- well how does the myth usually go-- burning and torture forever or some such variation. You have just as much to lose if you are wrong.

Kuu

I remember once a group of my Christian friends held prayer meetings because a little girl desparately needed a heart transplant. They prayed that the neccessary heart would turn up. Now to me it would seem that they were praying that another child would die to provide that heart.


If I prayed every day to the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or to Santa, or to Zeus I am sure my prayers would be 'answered' once in a while but then once in a while I win a small prize on the lottery. It is all a matter of chance.

Biff the unclean

Santa prefers that any prayers that you may want to address to him be in the form of a hand written letter. Please include all pertinent information as to whether you have been naughty or nice (There are two schools of thought about who gets presents. One school says that only nice boys and girls will get gifts and bad ones lumps of coal. The second school believes gifts come only by grace. They hold that even if you are naughty you will get a present anyway because what the Hell it's Christmas) And any information as to your sizes would make it easier for Santa to answer your prayers. Amen.