brighid

Well, I don't agree that illness and pressure is any reason to do something illegal and immoral. She did not state what she was ill with and frankly I am not confident of her truthfulness on this matter. For the sake of argument, had she actually been ill this would still be NO excuse to plagirize. The outcome of handing in an incomplete assignment, a poorly constructed assignment and a plagirized assingment are almost equal. However, an incomplete assignment will only get one a failing grade without the threat of expulsion, etc.

We also do not know the history Blue Metal has with this teacher, or if there was a valid reason why her professor did not take pity on her. It is plausible that Blue Metal has used similar excuses before, or has a history of laziness OR the teacher could have clearly established rules stated at the beginning of class that do not allow for such cases. It is also plausible that a student is required to have a doctors note in order to validate an excuse of an extended absence and without such an extension cannot be given.

In any case, Blue Metal was absolutely wrong to plagirize in any instance. Pressure and illness are not valid excuses for taking illegal or immoral action, even if person was sick and under pressure. Plenty of people, students included find themselves in these sorts of situations and do not chose to do what they know is wrong.

Brighid

Proxima Centauri

I accept freely that illness is not an excuse for immoral action. It is none the less a factor in mitigation. I feel Sakpo should have taken that into account in deciding what to do. There was, in my opinion, a real risk that Blue_Metal would be punished harder than she deserved.
I do not know if Blue_Metal is normally truthful and acted out of character due to pressure and bad health or if Blue_Metal is regularly lazy and dishonest. The accused should usually be given the benifit of the doubt.
In Sakpo's position I would have done nothing except advise Blue_Metal on appeal procedures etc. University and College Authorities have plenty of resources to detect plagiarism. Sakpo's intervention was unecessary.
Blue_Metal has been alienated against her fellow atheists. We have all learnt to distrust each other.

brighid

However, Blue Metal was not alienated from her fellow atheists because of any action Sakpo took. She was alienated from some of her fellow atheists because of her own actions.

Her sickness is a mitigating factor perhaps, but we do not know that it wasn't taken into account by her professor OR in fact if she was so ill that she couldn't complete her original assignment, etc. Given her track record with honesty I personally lack the confidence that her account of the situation is either accurate, or deliberately skewed with relevant information missing.

I am not sure if one can accurately speculate as to what Sakpo did or did not take into consideration when coming to this conclusion, outside of what has actually been posted. It is a bit presumptuous to conclude that Sakpo did or did not take anything into consideration when coming to this particular decision.

I do not disagree with Sakpo informing the Dean of what was publicly learned at ii. I do disagree that other parts of BM's identity were not protected.

The reality is that Blue Metal does not seem to have been harmed in any degree by Sakpos actions and the Dean, being prudent, does not seem to have taken her admissions on ii into account. Perhaps this is because there was ample evidence for her guilt without any additional information.

We have no evidence that the Dean and/or the teacher did not act appropriately according to the unique facets of Blue Metals academic performance, it is unfair to conclude that they acted without compassion or otherwise based on the limited information we do have.

Having been a university student who endured two prolonged illnesses (one an adult case of scarlet fever and second a toxic reaction to medication given at our "Death Center"), both near the end of the semester when 20 + page papers were due (and in all but one unique instance) I was given ample room to make up my work. In the one instance I did not receive that extra time and my situation was made worse because I had failed to back up a disk with my research on it, and that disk got corrupted effectually whipping out months of work. I turned in a paper that received a lower grade, but I turned in my own work on that 20 page research paper. In all other cases I made up the work as best I could and in most cases I maintained the grade I had before I fell ill. In some cases my grade suffered by one letter grade. 9 out of my 10 professors were willing to accomodate my situation. The one that didn't was because of the poor relationship she and I had, coupled with her own bad reputation as being ... well ... as another professor put it ... something of a bitch.

I personally see no reason, for such a short assignment, that she already appeared to have substantial work done for, that a few hours of work could not have turned out a suitable piece of work.

It would have been better to have turned in nothing then to have turned in another persons worked passed off as ones own.

A more prudent course of action should have been taken in order to protect irrelevant information about Blue_Metal, but after all the debate I cannot see a specific problem with providing any authority with relevant admissions of guilt, or information regarding a crime (that doesn't carry the penalty of loss of life or liberty.) In part I feel as if we are shooting the messenger.


Brighid

Proxima Centauri

lunar tee

Hi; I'm new here and this is my first post, so I'm just going to jump right in. Does anyone agree with me that there IS no absolute right or wrong here? Both of the individuals involved conceived an appropriate action at the time that might have differed from the action they would have conceived as appropriate at another time. I'm not saying we don't have or shouldn't have personal standards, only that our standards do change situationally. I have some opinion of what I think would have been appropriate in both their cases, and if I were in a position where my judgement counted (say, if I were Dean), then I would have made the call. But my point is that we don't really know what WE would have done in the same situation because we are unable to feel the weight of those personal mitigating factors.

I am also a student and I know that my so-called standards do vary according to how I feel at a particular time in a particular situation. Does anyone disagree?

Proxima Centauri

You have a point, Lunar Tee. It is difficult to say what, if anything is absolutely right here. I've still got a few more points to make later though.

brighid

One simply cannot know all the potential variables in most situations. It is reasonable to assume that the Dean of a Christian University is likely to be Christian, but that does not automatically equate to being unfairly biased against atheists.

BM's atheism is absolutely irrelevant to any accusation of plagirism. It seems, at least from what can be reasonably concluded that BM suffered the consequences of her actions regardless of her atheism. It does seem that the Dean did what was appropriate given the situation and was on this course of action with and without any information found at this site.

There is NO compelling evidence that BM was treated inappropriately, or without proper consideration by her professors and the administrative staff of the school. Her plagirism was so obvious and easily detected that a very cursory search of the Internet exposed her charade. It may in fact be the case that the school has anti-plagirism measures instituted such as those describe by others. It also doesn't appear that she has suffered any disproportionate consequence because of her vibrator and atheism discussions here.

I think the issue of this discussion should be something more along the lines of whether or not members of a community are ethically obligated to report information about known crimes or infractions egregious enough to warrant attention and punishment, in order to set the precedent that such harmful actions will not be tolerated?

How would we react if this were a theist posting on this site who found herself/himself in the exact same dilemma? Would reporting this admission be any less bothersome if she had not also posted other information, where in conservative circles would likely draw ire?

It is unfortunate that other, potentially harmful information could be discovered about BM by taking some extra time to examine this site more carefully. But why is the burden of responsibility on fellow community members for this information that was neither coerced, or came with a promise of sanctity?

Upon reflection I have tried to surmise a solution about this situation and I came to a few conclusion. Perhaps Sakpo could simply have contacted the Dean and stated that BM made a public admission of guilt regarding her plagirism charge, that Sakpo felt ethically obligated to report that information, but before proceeding needed to know whether or not that admission would make any difference in the Deans decision. If the Dean said that it would not make a difference because enough evidence was available Sakpo would have no need to provide the links, but still fulfilled his ethical obligation by speaking up. If the Dean truly needed that public admission to definitively prove a case against BM he could then take the appropriate measures to reasonably protect the other information not directly relevant to this case. However, he cannot be responsible (now or in this case) for what additional measures the Dean might pursue while investigating this site that BM publicly declared.

Furthermore, Blue Metal made the path of discovery inherently easy by failing to remain anonymous in a situation where anonymity can be closely guarded. There was NO NEED for her to give any specifics about her identity, school, or otherwise. She chose to expose herself and therefore set herself up for the situation we have now. She must accept responsibility for that, and we must put the burden squarely on her shoulders even if that is uncomfortable - at least in my opinion.

Everyone makes youthful mistakes. It is a part of growing up and hopefully maturing. I don't think those mistakes should be (at least in general) be unreasonably punished, and I think everyone deserves an opportunity (or even a few) for redemption. I do not see that BM was unreasonably punished. However, considering we do not have all the facts, and the other side of this equation has had no opportunity to present their side ... I could quite possibly be very wrong and I personally find it difficult to come to the kind of solid conclusion I would feel most comfortable with.

It is important to examine the implications of our actions, especially the foreseeable consequences in order to avoid unneccessary or negligent harm to our fellow community members (here at ii, and the world at large.) But in this case the what if's have not happened, and people should not be punished or chastised for what if's. We should discuss those scenarios to the best of our ability in order to learn from potential and real mistakes.

Brighid

lunar tee

Good; I'll be interested to hear them. If I were in this situation, I probably would have considered that reporting Blue would have a betrayal of support more troublesome than her cheating, and, thus would not have reported her (though I probably would have gone to her and asked if she would discuss it with me). On the other hand, if I were, say, in a shop and saw someone slipping items into a pocket, I probably WOULD go and tell a staff member. Now, I am not prepared to say that I am confident my evaluation is superior to Sakpo's because only my own particular experiences (not Sakpo's) are informing my opinions. I am only confident enough to say what I would probably do. Of course, in other instances, I might feel strongly enough to come out with a "should do", but, even then, I understand that the whole thing must be dealt with subjectively. I think we all agree that in order to keep society flowing, we sometimes have to take a stand and do something, but there are many interpretations of where that point lies.

Proxima Centauri

Well, I've read Blue_Metal's posts in the, "For Anyone who Cares" thread. I'm much less sympathetic to her now. She tries, for example, to tell us that she mistakenly handed in someone else's work as hers because she really thought it was hers. If a writer created a character like Blue_Metal in a work on fiction, readers would say the story lacks credibility, that such a person could not possibly exist.
I no longer think the University staff were prejudiced against her because of her atheism. They reacted to the person she is. Her punishment was that she must spend a term without putting a foot wrong. I hope she learns to take her responsibilities more seriously and doesn't put a foot wrong. Having assessed Blue_Metal's character I support the University's decision. Some people are their own worst enemies. Still I'm a bit worried about her. If anything goes wrong which is not her fault, say a car breaks down, I fear no one will believe a word she says. I wonder why.
I will now return to what Sakpo did. If he had assessed Blue_Metal's character as I have I can sympathize with his actions. I fear he did his thing before she had made enough posts that he could have make a confident assessment of her chlaracter.

beejay

Have you read the thread before "For Anyone who Cares". If you had, I think you'd find that Sakpo had enough information to assess her character.

However, I'm not sure that Sakpo owes a duty to the college to "snitch" on Blue_Metal. (And I think most of us thought that any attempt by Blue_Metal to deny plagiarism would be immediately discovered by the college. This makes any notification to them superfluous, I think.)