Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Darwin's Finch · 07-26-2002, 06:34 AM

Good letter, Ron. I agree entirely. Let us know if you get a response.

DougI · 07-26-2002, 07:19 AM

Yeah, like before the march Atheists were never the target of attacks by fundies and televangelists. Get out of your dream world and quit trying to tear down the activities of those trying to actually work for change rather than just whine about society.

Ron Garrett · 07-26-2002, 07:25 AM

Ellen's response:

Quote:

Hello,

�� Thank-you for your e-mail.� I reiterate what I said in the letter.�� This is a matter of individual opinion.� Some people might want the gays out.� Some might not like Atheist "churches" participating.� If we allowed everyone to tell us who to exclude we might not have any groups left on the endorsement page.�
�� I sincerely doubt that our "image" in the publics mind will improve if the satanist groups are removed from the list.�
�� You should also keep in mind that this is just an endorsement list on the web.� If they were removed from the list, would you also bar them from the Mall on Washington?� Are we going to cordon off the place to some people and groups?�
�� I have to tell you that I do not want to list certain groups on the endorsement page.� They turn my stomach.� But I am biting the bullet and doing it.� You don't know who they are because I want the public to see unity on this from us - not this dissention.� The one thing that the media will eat up is dissention - believe me. It won't be the satanists endorsement.

Sincerely,

Ellen Johnson

and mine:

Quote:

Ellen, I appreciate your position, but I also appreciate the cachet of playing to an Atheist/Satanist connection. It's simply too juicy to leave alone in this era of soundbites. When I lived in Irvine I was in the crowd watching an hour long Gay Pride Day parade. The only part that made the news and the evangelical broadcasts was of course the "Bondage" float. I doubt the news agencies will concern themselves overmuch with our unity or lack thereof. I think it's far more likely they will concern themselves with trying to characterize us in 20 seconds that will keep viewer attention, and I fear, as I am sure you do, that they they will choose to hype rather than inform. I guess we will see which it will be in November.

Ron

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]

Ron Garrett · 07-26-2002, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DougI:
Yeah, like before the march Atheists were never the target of attacks by fundies and televangelists. Get out of your dream world and quit trying to tear down the activities of those trying to actually work for change rather than just whine about society.

Doug:

I'm quite aware these attacks would be nothing new. I am also aware of the importance of how the debate is shaped and characterized, and how this affects our chance for success. Beyond that, I don't merely object to the Satanist association on the grounds of how it appears. I object to association with any superstitious practice of any form. There is a vast difference between rejecting the concept of deity and simply rejecting the Judeo-Christian concept of deity in favor of practicing other forms of shamanism and worship, all of which as an atheist I reject. I am not trying to tear down anything, rather quite the opposite.

Moreover, since I have been and remain politically and socially active and involved, including lobbying for legislation and seeing it become law, community volunteer work, etc., now going on 35 years, I can hardly be characterized as just whining about society instead of working for change. Nor are you, a complete stranger, in a position to make that judgement of me or anyone else on this board.

But thanks for sharing.

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]

DougI · 07-26-2002, 09:55 AM

So simply disagree rather than work to tear down any progress by a collection of individuals united for a common good. Your behavior is a setback to the progress of civil rights. Big fucking deal if three Satanists show up to an event you weren't planning on attending.

Sure I'm in a position to make a judgement on a hypocrite such as yourself. All of a sudden you are the wise man on the mountain top who can dismiss who is truly godless and who isn't? Blow it out your ass.

Jamie_L · 07-26-2002, 10:20 AM

Ahhh, unity.....

Krieger · 07-26-2002, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Big fucking deal if three Satanists show up to an event you weren't planning on attending.

I agree.

Who cares if two or three Satanists show up? Do you think they'll be carrying around huge signs with pentagrams on them, holding pitchforks and wearing horns? Hah, well I don't think so.

Personally, I don't like Satanism because it seems to be pro-capitalism, but I don't care if Satanists want to march for equal rights. I know the LeVayans (the Church of Satan followers) do not actually believe in a real "Satan" anyway.

Ron Garrett · 07-26-2002, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DougI:
So simply disagree rather than work to tear down any progress by a collection of individuals united for a common good. Your behavior is a setback to the progress of civil rights. Big fucking deal if three Satanists show up to an event you weren't planning on attending.

Sure I'm in a position to make a judgement on a hypocrite such as yourself. All of a sudden you are the wise man on the mountain top who can dismiss who is truly godless and who isn't? Blow it out your ass.

My perspective is that the hypocrisy in this situation lies in the pretense that Satanism is not simply another form of theistic belief. I quite early on put my personal endorsement on the march site, I've planned to attend from the beginning and at this time still do. Maybe you and I could arrange to meet?

Autonemesis · 07-26-2002, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Garrett:
My perspective is that the hypocrisy in this situation lies in the pretense that Satanism is not simply another form of theistic belief

Who cares if it is or isn't? If they are willing to stand up and say "We're Godless" then that's good enough for me and a lot of other people. If the Southern Baptist Convention took a chill pill and decided to endorse the march saying "We're Godless Too" even though I know they aren't, then that's an endorsement I'd gladly accept, because you know they'd take shit for it from all the other Christians regardless of whether it was true or not.

Now if the SBC were to do this to mock us, sure - reject the endorsement. But if they were to do it as a show of solidarity for church-state separation, GREAT!. Half the purpose of the march is to demonstrate that there is nothing shameful about declaring one's godlessness. I would be thrilled if a mainstream Christian denomination endorsed the march on that basis.

Ron Garrett · 07-26-2002, 11:57 AM

Points taken Bud. All of this stuff about <a href="http://www.satan4u.8m.com/philosophy/index.html" target="_blank">Magick</a>demonstrates pretty convincingly, at least to me, that LaVeyan Satanism is a religion in every sense as any other, and I was hoping this event was a way to take a public stand against such magical nonsense and religion in general, which is all around us affecting us all, while some of you at least see this as a stand against discrimination toward the godless, which to me seems an utterly different issue of seeking equality with theisms, which I don't. I can't think of a single instance where I've suffered discrimination or lost civil rights because of my atheism, but all humankind suffers from superstition. It appears I may be out of step with the purpose of this event, or just that the purpose isn't what I'd hoped.

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]

07-26-2002, 11:57 AM	#20
Ron Garrett Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: United States Posts: 1,657	Points taken Bud. All of this stuff about <a href="http://www.satan4u.8m.com/philosophy/index.html" target="_blank">Magick</a>demonstrates pretty convincingly, at least to me, that LaVeyan Satanism is a religion in every sense as any other, and I was hoping this event was a way to take a public stand against such magical nonsense and religion in general, which is all around us affecting us all, while some of you at least see this as a stand against discrimination toward the godless, which to me seems an utterly different issue of seeking equality with theisms, which I don't. I can't think of a single instance where I've suffered discrimination or lost civil rights because of my atheism, but all humankind suffers from superstition. It appears I may be out of step with the purpose of this event, or just that the purpose isn't what I'd hoped. [ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]</p>

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07-26-2002, 06:34 AM	#11
Darwin's Finch Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Gardnerville, NV Posts: 666	Good letter, Ron. I agree entirely. Let us know if you get a response.

07-26-2002, 07:19 AM	#12
DougI Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Wichita, KS, USA Posts: 932	Yeah, like before the march Atheists were never the target of attacks by fundies and televangelists. Get out of your dream world and quit trying to tear down the activities of those trying to actually work for change rather than just whine about society.

07-26-2002, 09:55 AM	#15
DougI Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Wichita, KS, USA Posts: 932	So simply disagree rather than work to tear down any progress by a collection of individuals united for a common good. Your behavior is a setback to the progress of civil rights. Big fucking deal if three Satanists show up to an event you weren't planning on attending. Sure I'm in a position to make a judgement on a hypocrite such as yourself. All of a sudden you are the wise man on the mountain top who can dismiss who is truly godless and who isn't? Blow it out your ass.

07-26-2002, 10:20 AM	#16
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Ahhh, unity.....

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