Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Malaclypse,
This isn't rocket science. I don't care how strong or weak you regard your own beliefs...I simply want to know what they are.

This is a simple yes or no question:
Do you believe Jesus and/or Julius Caesar actually existed?


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Pitshade,

You misunderstand. I haven't shown (or attempted to show) any evidence whatsoever. I asked 'What would it take 2000 years ago?' You said 'Miracles that didn't stop. Signs like speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, etc...'.
I simply replied that this phenomena still occurs.
Again I'm not saying 'THIS IS EVIDENCE FOR GOD' I'm simply stating the fact 'THIS PHENOMENA STILL OCCURS'.

This is a little unclear. Are you really talking about the above signs or the miracles allegedly performed by Jesus? I believe you are refering to Jesus' miracles. Is this correct?

Frankly, this is off topic. The question is 'What would have convinced you.' not 'Why I believe.'

But since you brought it up I'll briefly state my position.

BEGIN SOAPBOX:
The gospels weren't the gospels first. They are historical documents of the first century. Historical documents that are extremely well supported especially considering the era and culture. They are more supported than any other classic document. Period.

I don't believe in Jesus 'because the Bible tells me so.' I believe in Jesus because there are huge amounts of solid historical evidence/documentation of His life. That some (not all) of these documents were later collated by people into a work that called 'The Bible' is of little consequence one way or the other. It had to be called something.
END SOAPBOX:

Again 'Why I believe' is a completely different topic.

More interesting Pitshade is this:
You have stated that no SINGLE event could have
occured 2000 years ago that would have convinced you of God's existence. Is this correct?


Thoughts and comments welcomed.


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas ]</p>

lpetrich

I'm not Malaclypse, but of these two JC's:

Julius Caesar, yes. Here's an <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/indef/4b.html" target="_blank">excellent discussion</a>.

Jesus Christ, probably not, and if he did, then the accounts of him are hopelessly contaminated by mythology. See <a href="http://www.jesuspuzzle.com" target="_blank">The Jesus Puzzle</a> for a good presentation of the Jesus-myth hypothesis.

Jeremy Pallant

Actually that depends on the species. One bite from a Rosy Boa certainly isn't fatal to an adult, but one bite from a Bushmaster certainly is. (Bushmaster bites are fatal 80% of the time even if anti-venom is administered). So it is a matter of degree. What species of snake were you referring to?

lpetrich

A laughable fairy tale. The Gospels are hagiographies, pure and simple. And they contradict each other on several important points, such as Jesus Christ's ancestry, how long he stayed in Jerusalem, and his resurrection. Also, the story of King Herod killing those baby boys in order to kill JC appears only in Matthew, despite it having a certain newsworthiness.

However, being under siege in one's infancy is a common theme in hero myths. Oedipus's father discovers that O will grow up and kill his father and marry his mother. So O's father has a slave expose O in the wilderness -- a slave who gives the baby O to some friend. The wicked King Amulius did not want Romulus and Remus to be born, so he made Rhea Silvia a Vestal Virgin. But the god Mars made her pregnant, and King Amulius put the baby boys in a bucket and put that bucket in the Tiber (hmmm... where else have I heard of someone being the offspring of a god and a virgin?). Hera wanted to get back at her husband Zeus for producing yet another love child, so she sent some snakes to kill that child, the baby Hercules. Who proceeded to strangle them. The Pharaoh of Egypt wanted to keep those pesky Israelites from multiplying, so he had all their baby boys killed (why not girls?). Moses's mother saved him by putting him in a basket, which she placed in the Nile. The wicked King Kamsa wanted to keep Devaki from having Krishna, so he killed her first seven children. Krishna survived by being switched with a girl that some peasants had had at the time he was born.

Pitshade

Your assertion (not fact) is that, "THIS PHENOMENA STILL OCCURS," and it is unsupported. There is no creditable reason to think that these signs have ever accompanied Christianity. You asserted that Pentecostals exhibit them, and I showed why that is not so. Furthermore, you are presenting (ad nauseum) the resurrection of Jesus Christ as evidence of God's existence.
Now then, the only sources you have for the resurrection are the 'gospels.' You have made the assertion that there are other accounts, but haven't actually produced anything to back up these claims.

In each of the gospels, the writer presents the life, teachings and works of Jesus as well as the story of his death and return. While there is no way that we can independently verify the story of the resurrection today, there are passages that we can check out. In Mark 16:17-18 (And elsewhere as the quote you provided shows), there are claims that we can check, and which I have shown do not stand up. Christians today do not exhibit the signs that the gospel writers said would accompany those who believe. There is in fact, no creditable evidence to show that they have ever shown these signs. If the gospels are found to be false in these things, why should we believe what they have to say about the resurrection?

This assertion is itself totally unsupported. If you have something which supports the historicity of the gospels, why don't you go ahead and cite it? Go ahead and shock everyone. Produce these. "huge amounts of solid historical evidence/documentation of His life." Hopefully they won't contradict each other as much as the gospel writers do.

What single event? The fact that a man died and returned from the dead is not evidence of God. Even if you could prove that the resurrection occurred, it would be meaningless without knowing the events of his life prior to being crucified. As I stated before, proof of the supernatural is not proof of God.

Koyaanisqatsi

I believe "grays" control your mind from the far side of the moon.

I believe the sun is a matter/energy projector and that we are the projections.

I believe that it is possible to consciously rearrange my molecules so that I can walk through "solid" matter.

WHO GIVES A SHIT WHAT PEOPLE BELIEVE!? People are idiots. People believe that mystical fairy god kings magically blinked everything into existence in order to punish it. People believe that murdering an innocent man can somehow "pay" for their crimes. People believe that angels tell mourners their loved ones still exist.

Belief means absolutely nothing at all!

SOMMS, you are so deeply indoctrinated that actually think that the word "believe" is equivalent to "know," i.e., that which has been demonstrated to be true. You asked us initially what it would take? Here's what it would take: FUCKIN' PROOF.

Now give it a rest.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Koy,
Uh...sorta, sorta not. You believe your parents love you. Your children believe you love them. You believe your car is going to get you to work in the morning. You make important decisions and live your life according to what you believe.


I find it fascinating that some people's beliefs are more affected by WHEN an event happened as opposed to WHAT event happened.

It shouldn't matter WHEN X happened that affects one's world view...but THAT X happened.


Moreover, it seems completely hypocritical that Malaclypse WON'T believe Jesus existed, but he WILL believe Plato existed even though there is far more evidence for the former.

Thoughts and comments welcomed,


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Pitshade,
Uh...

So IF some guy claimed He was God AND that guy did things only God could do LIKE resurrecting from the dead...THEN this would not be evidence for God?

How did you come to THAT conclusion?


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Automaton

These beliefs have a subtle difference over those that Koy stated. They have a little ol' thing (an unfamiliar concept to the theistic mind, except in the cases where it can be distorted to support their worldview) called evidence. Look it up. Unfortunately for you, there is about as much evidence that Jesus is the Son of God as there is for Mother Goose being a real life character.