Toto

I haven't seen the play, but I didn't get the impression that AFA was opposed to it because they thought that their religious views were portrayed unfairly. They just objected to a play that seemed to endorse "the homosexual agenda" (or lifestyle).

Alonzo Fyfe

I don't think they make this distinction.

bonduca

Taken from the topic post:

If they said that religious folk were being unfairly represented as homophobic and bigoted, they would have my sympathies. But it does appear that their main objection is connected to the issue of homosexuality.

Rusting Car Bumper

I appreciate that you took time to answer.

Frankly I think you aren't being honest with yourself. I think that if *you* on this very day broke your leg in the street and were forced to choose between shamanic dance or prayer or the materialist doctor, I think that you would choose the doctor who would set the bone and prevent secondary infections and so on. You would choose materialism/naturalism.

I think you are kidding yourself and resting on a chimera of words to say otherwise. When push comes to shove, and when it matters we could stand beside you and note that your decisions denote a belief in material explanations. (It doesn't matter on an internet message board or even in a serious philosophical forum for that matter.) When I observe you do a number of things that denote a real belief in the supernatural then I will believe you. However, everyone I have never met, without exception, someone who does not put fuel in the car, work for food, take medicine in sickness, and open the door instead of trying to walk through it.

Those who claim the supernatural or immaterial (choose your own term) have to demonstrate a belief in it before I will even entertain the idea that somehow their children are being "indoctrinated into naturalism" as if to say to us they have chosen not to be.

DC

Hedwig

It was HBO, not to derail the discussion.

Stephen Maturin

Or both even. Good point, ManM. I have no doubt that AFA's contributors harbor real concerns about these issues; they wouldn't be contributors otherwise. As for AFC's owners and operators, though, the case for "honest concern" is difficult if not impossible to make.

Read AFA's "action alerts" and press releases and you'll invariably find rhetoric that bounces between laughably outrageous hyperbole and outright lies. The Crampton quote in Toto's OP and AFA's gross mischaracterizations of the Ninth Circuit's ruling in the Pledge of Allegiance case are prime examples. At bottom, it's the rhetoric of unscrupulous commercial advertising designed to fire up a particular audience. In this case, the target is people who would ordinarily be outraged by all things unchristian, but not quite outraged enough to start writing checks without a good, solid verbal shove.

Peruse AFA's website in detail and count the donation requests. While you're at it, check out the online store and all the neat Christian trinkets and baubbles you can buy there. Keep clicking and you'll eventually find a particularly odious page on which AFA suggests that you leave your 401(k) to them in your will, just in case God "calls you home" early. Last I checked, Wildmon & Co.'s yearly income was something like $15 million. Nice work if ya can get it.

Maybe, just maybe, it's not all about the money. But make no mistake--it is indeed about the money, at least in substantial part.

That's true. Besides, AFA does a better job demonizing itself than a simpleton such as myself could ever do.

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Stephen Maturin ]</p>

Oresta

MadM,(In case you're lurking about on this thread.)
Demonizing? You don't think these quotes are inflammatory rhetoric, loaded with unwarranted assertions, and intended to agitate?

Nikolai

Kinda off topic, but what exactly makes a non-profit organisation nonprofit? Do the people working in it have to receive no pay? Does it have to only accept donations as source of income, and, if so, does selling, say, t-shirts in an online store count? Where is the line drawn?

Toto

What makes a non-profit non-profit? It is basically a determination made by the IRS according to its guidelines. There has to be a purpose that is charitable or educational or fits some other legal category, and the "profits" cannot accrue to an individual, although individuals can get salaries. There are a lot of other picky requirements.

4th Generation Atheist

In case anyone's interested in, um, what some University of Maryland people think:

I'm an alum at the school in question, having received a Master's there about a year ago. I still am in touch with a number of the students, mostly of the science-geek variety, not much "into" social issues but many in honors programs. These programs would be affected by the requirement. The verdict? Most students object to too many reading assignments of any type, especially outside their own major study field, b/c of the extra hours of sleep lost should one wish to get the grades and remain in an honors program. As to controversy, the average honors student is aware of the necessity of coping with it. A number dread tense in-class discussions, which will undoubtedly accompany an assignment such as this. A few don't particularly want to read about homosexuality, finding such a personal topic embarassing (remember the age range we're talking about here), perhaps disapproving of it as a "lifestyle", perhaps just not seeing how a rotten tomato fight (real or figurative) is going to benefit their education. Many of the physics, chem, math and comp-sci people I know just find the topic dull, or perhaps only interesting b/c someone died. But they are aware that to get an honors-level college eductaion, and to take the positions in society that such an education will prepare them for, will require a stomach for controversy. So while many aren't looking forward to it, they're not protesting it either. Gay activists on campus (unsurprisingly) are most concerned with it, b/c no one wants to confront angry fundies and hence they don't want the visit from the AFA.

All human reasons. Doesn't surprise me. If I encounter any more on this issue, I'll try to keep IIDB posted.