keyser_soze

Exactly, god repents.....maybe we should all be willing to do that? I repent any NON-RATIONAL thought...Hey Magus, come join us, after all, we should be willing to ADMIT it when we're wrong. Don't you think?

yguy

Since David had many descendants, I don't see how removal of any one of them from power constitutes a breach of promise.

I'd like to know where you get the idea that Zedekiah was a son of Coniah, especially in light of Jeremiah 37:1:

"And king Zedekiah the son of Josiah reigned instead of Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, whom Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made king in the land of Judah."

keyser_soze

Your explanation for exodus?

yguy

I believe God had no more intention of wiping out the Israelites than He had of killing Isaac. It was a test for Moses.

Fr.Andrew

(yguy): Since David had many descendants, I don't see how removal of any one of them from power constitutes a breach of promise.
(Fr Andrew): The point is that God changed his mind. He said that David's house and throne would be established forever...there would always be a Davidic monarch sitting on his throne and ruling over Judah.
He (God) articulated what must have been a change of mind when He cursed the seed of Coniah...who, as the latest in a long line of direct descendants of David, was sitting on his throne and ruling over Judah at the time.
And a change of the divine mind was further (and graphically) illustrated by the executions of Zedekiah's sons, effectively ending the Davidic dynasty.
If further evidence is needed that God experienced a change of heart regarding David's kingdom and throne being "established forever", I observe that there has not been a descendant of David sitting on his throne and ruling Judah for over 2500 years.


(yguy): I'd like to know where you get the idea that Zedekiah was a son of Coniah, especially in light of Jeremiah 37:1:
(Fr Andrew): Sorry--I'd just glanced at a list of the kings of Judah and thought I'd throw that in at the end of the post...I'd forgotten that he was Coniah's uncle.

Fr.Andrew

(Fr Andrew): That doesn't really address the the apparent changes of mind in the examples so far offered.
Did God not change His mind frequently regarding the fate of Sodom?
Did He not have second thoughts about his initial creation?
Did He not have a change of heart about an endless Davidic dynasty?

braces_for_impact

I think the answer to this is pretty obvious.

Hopeful convert:
So what is this Christianity you keep going on about Paul?

Paul:
It's a splitoff from Judaism, the messiah has come! You accept him into your heart, live right, and go to heaven. It's easy see?

Hopeful convert:
Sounds great? What do I have to do?

Paul:
Well first, accept Jesus as your personal savior with all your heart.

Hopeful Convert:
Got it. Next?

Paul:
Well then we have to cut off the tip of your tallywhacker.

Hopeful convert:
Say what?

Paul:
We follow all the old Judaic customs as well. So we have to cut off the tip of your tallywhacker. Oh yeah, no working on Saturday, no shellfish, no mixed thread clothes, lots of footwashing, and...

Hopeful convert:
Um, never mind. Thanks anyway, have a good one Saul, I , er, mean Paul.

Paul:
Well, how about we forget the tallywhacker part then?

yguy

I don't see any evidence of a change of heart there. Abraham evidently was satisfied that the Lord would not destroy Sodom if ten righteous were found there; as it turned out, He held off for the sake of four - Lot and his family. I'm sure He would have held off for the sake of even one, and had that in mind from the beginning.

I believe He was merely saddened at what His children had done with the gift of life He had given them. If He'd had a real change of heart, none of us would be here.

When the pharisees declared themselves children of Abraham, John the Baptist said God could raise up children of Abraham from stones. I think that's what happened. While the earthly kingdom of Israel was dead for awhile, the Son of David ruled the hearts of the spiritual descendants of Abraham without regard to what race or creed they are - and still does.

Fr.Andrew

(yguy): I don't see any evidence of a change of heart there.
(Fr Andrew): I'm stumped. God begins with the intent to destroy all of Sodom and Gomorrah--the righteous with the wicked--but Abraham is able to bargain Him down from that position (he got Him to change His mind)--from an agreement to spare the cities if fifty righteous men can be found, to forty-five, then to forty, then thirty, then twenty, and finally ten. I'm honestly baffled that you see no evidence there of a series of changes of heart.

(yguy): Abraham evidently was satisfied that the Lord would not destroy Sodom if ten righteous were found there;
(Fr Andrew): I don't see that Abraham's confidence in the outcome of the bargaining session has anything to do with the issue of God changing his mind about it.

(yguy): I'm sure He would have held off for the sake of even one, and had that in mind from the beginning.
(Fr Andrew): It must be wonderful to have such surety about the nature of God.


(yguy): If He'd had a real change of heart, none of us would be here.
(Fr Andrew): Your confidence about what goes on in God's mind notwithstanding, if we go by scripture, God was "grieved" not so much by the behavior of His creation (they were His creation, after all!), but precisely because He had created them. Because He "...had made man on the earth".
The decision to destroy His original creation and start fresh indicates to me that He realized that He'd screwed up with the first plan and had changed it.


(Fr Andrew--previously): Did He not have a change of heart about an endless Davidic dynasty?
(yguy): When the pharisees declared themselves children of Abraham, John the Baptist said God could raise up children of Abraham from stones. I think that's what happened. While the earthly kingdom of Israel was dead for awhile, the Son of David ruled the hearts of the spiritual descendants of Abraham without regard to what race or creed they are - and still does.
(Fr Andrew--currently): I see no basis for that beyond apologetic desperation.
It's really pretty cut and dried I think--scripture has God promising David a perpetual line--and then scripture has God changing his mind about it some twenty generations later.
The Davidic dynasty died out long ago and far away.
Facts is facts.

yguy

Where's your evidence for that?

A strictly literalistic interpretation could support that view, but it doesn't make a lick of sense except to those comfortable with the idea that God is an idiot.

He didn't screw up any more than does a dad who gives his son a car only to have the kid get drunk and wrap it around a power pole.

What a surprise.

Of course, some see the restoration of the nation of Israel as supporting the idea, but I doubt that you do.