Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Stephen Maturin · 10-24-2002, 01:45 PM

You can find a summary of the closing arguments <a href="http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWS/StoryAlabamamoore24w.htm" target="_blank">here</a>.

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Stephen Maturin ]

Toto · 10-24-2002, 04:13 PM

"Moore installed the monument as the 'interior decorator for the rotunda.' "

10-24-2002, 04:56 PM

Here's some background info. on the judge:

Thompson, Myron Herbert
Born 1947 in Tuskegee Institute, AL

Federal Judicial Service:
U. S. District Court, Middle District of Alabama
Nominated by Jimmy Carter on September 17, 1980, to a seat vacated by Frank M. Johnson, Jr.; Confirmed by the Senate on September 26, 1980, and received commission on September 29, 1980. Served as chief judge, 1991-1998.

Education:
Yale University, B.A., 1969

Yale Law School, J.D., 1972

Professional Career:
Assistant attorney general of Alabama, 1972-1974
Private practice, Montgomery, Alabama, 1974-1980

Race or Ethnicity: African American

Gender: Male

------------------

I think the good guys are going to win this one.

Buffman · 10-24-2002, 05:40 PM

FOGuy

Careful! Deuteronomy 10:4 and supports 5:22.

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]

Philosoft · 10-24-2002, 06:28 PM

Quote:

That God, Moore argued, presides over both the church and the state, as well as the gods of other faiths, because that God provided the freedom of conscience that allows people to worship other gods.

Ah, yes. The old "my God is more real than your God" defense. This is testimony given by a judge. Would said judge allow such nonsense in his own courtroom?

Toto · 10-25-2002, 09:38 AM

<a href="http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/1035364786248780.xml" target="_blank">More Testimony</a>

Quote:

MONTGOMERY The Bible and the Ten Commandments played only a minor role in the development of American law, a University of Tulsa law professor testified in federal court Tuesday.

Paul Finkelman, testifying as an expert on American constitutional law and history, said the nation's founders mentioned Roman, British and European continental law but not the Bible or the Ten Commandments during their debates on the Constitution.

"The Ten Commandments represent a tiny slice of the heritage of American law," said Finkelman. "No respected scholar of legal history would assert that the Ten Commandments have played a dominant or major role, or even a very significant role, in the development of American law as a whole."

. . .

"Our constitutional order owes far more to the great English lawyers of the 17th century like Sir Edward Coke and John Selden, and the writings of Henry de Bracton, as well as to the ideas of John Locke, Adam Smith and other Enlightenment philosophers, than to the Ten Commandments or any biblical source," Finkelman said.

When questioned by Moore's lawyers, Finkelman was unable to cite any writings by de Bracton which he had read. Moore, however, returned to the witness stand with a copy of a book published in 1256 by de Bracton, whom Moore identified as the "father of the common law," and who wrote, Moore said, that government should be under God and law rather than under man.

"For 500 years, these concepts were well-understood, that rights come from God, that justice proceeds from God," said Moore. Moore also disputed Finkelman's claim that the nation's founders referred to the God of nature rather than the God of the Bible in their references to the Creator.

Moore cited an address by Benjamin Franklin which quoted the Bible four times, including Psalm 127, which stated that "unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain that build it." Franklin "wasn't referring to a God nobody knew," said Moore.

Also testifying for plaintiffs Tuesday was Randall Balmer, chairman of the religion department at Columbia University, who said a reasonable person would consider Moore's monument to the Ten Commandments an endorsement of religion by the state

I recall (don't have the time now to find it) that Thomas Jefferson refuted the idea that the common law was based on God as a source of rights. I hope there is a law clerk who will track down all these details.

Bracton is described <a href="http://www.law.upenn.edu/bll/medallion/bracton/bracton.htm" target="_blank">here.</a> I find this interesting:

Quote:

His fame is due to a treatise on the laws and customs of England. (De Legibus et Consuetudinibus Angliae). While the attribution of the work to Bracton is of considerable antiquity, it now seems that the bulk of the work was written by persons other than Bracton in the 1220's and 1230's. It seems then to have been edited and partially updated in the late 1230's, with various additions being made to it between that time and the 1250's. The last owner of the original manuscript and the author of the later additions was probably Bracton. Even though it remained unfinished this book is incomparably the best English legal work produced in the middle ages.

RufusAtticus · 10-25-2002, 10:09 AM

How long do you think it will take Moore to claim that his freedom of religion was damaged after he loses.

Stephen Maturin · 10-25-2002, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
 I recall (don't have the time now to find it) that Thomas Jefferson refuted the idea that the common law was based on God as a source of rights.

Well, Jefferson was certainly none too keen on the notion that Christianity was part of the common law. Though anything but an easy read, his <a href="http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl227.htm" target="_blank">February 10, 1814 Letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper</a> sets forth his views in considerable detail.

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Stephen Maturin ]

crazyfingers · 10-26-2002, 08:26 AM

This doesn't sound so good.

<a href="http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=17155" target="_blank">Trial over Alabama Ten Commandments monument ends</a>

Quote:

Thompson said he expected to rule by Nov. 18 and believed the main issue was "if government can acknowledge God."

Melchior agreed and told Thompson that should be a simple issue to resolve.

Melchior is the lawyer for Moore.

RufusAtticus · 10-26-2002, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Kevin Goodner, who teaches history and philosophy at Emerald Mountain Christian School in Montgomery, said it was important for his students to sit in on what could turn out to be a landmark case.

"I think this is a significant court case dealing with the question of who's in charge � God or the state. I'm surprised there weren't more classes here," Goodner said.

What a marroon.

10-24-2002, 01:45 PM	#21
Stephen Maturin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Broomfield, Colorado, USA Posts: 1,295	You can find a summary of the closing arguments <a href="http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWS/StoryAlabamamoore24w.htm" target="_blank">here</a>. [ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Stephen Maturin ]</p>

10-24-2002, 05:40 PM	#24
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	FOGuy Careful! Deuteronomy 10:4 and supports 5:22. [ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

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10-24-2002, 04:13 PM	#22
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	"Moore installed the monument as the 'interior decorator for the rotunda.' "

10-24-2002, 04:56 PM	#23
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	Here's some background info. on the judge: Thompson, Myron Herbert Born 1947 in Tuskegee Institute, AL Federal Judicial Service: U. S. District Court, Middle District of Alabama Nominated by Jimmy Carter on September 17, 1980, to a seat vacated by Frank M. Johnson, Jr.; Confirmed by the Senate on September 26, 1980, and received commission on September 29, 1980. Served as chief judge, 1991-1998. Education: Yale University, B.A., 1969 Yale Law School, J.D., 1972 Professional Career: Assistant attorney general of Alabama, 1972-1974 Private practice, Montgomery, Alabama, 1974-1980 Race or Ethnicity: African American Gender: Male ------------------ I think the good guys are going to win this one.

10-25-2002, 10:09 AM	#27
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	How long do you think it will take Moore to claim that his freedom of religion was damaged after he loses.

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