GeoTheo

Oh really? I must have missed it. I missed how it was proven that homosexuals or people of any sexual orientation have no choice in the matter.
So tell me, Do people have any choice in the sexual positions they prefer? How about with whom they choose to have sex and the frequency? Do people have choice of the setting?
Is this too all genetically pre-determined by some as yet undiscovered complex of genes?

Autonemesis

What does it matter? There is no question that Religion is a choice. Though it's not a settled question, I'll grant for the sake of argument that gay or straight is a choice, just like the choice of what church to go to.

Now what, smarty pants?

scigirl

When did I say that?

I never claimed to be an expert - but I do know gay people, and I've read many web sites, and scientific articles about the subject. Anyway, it doesn't take a PhD in rocket science to see discrimination.

scigirl

scigirl

It might be. I don't remember 'choosing' to like sex any more than I remember 'choosing to be hetero. Does this mean I have no control over my sex life? Of course not.

So let me get this straight - you believe that gay people do not choose to be attracted to members of the same sex, and they do not choose to want to have sex.

Yet they should just ignore all these natural urges because an ancient book tells them too (and this ancient book has laws about what insects you can eat and what fibers you can wear together, but apparently no one cares about that part anymore, just the part about gays, OH but christians are not bigots)

Geo, Do you have any comments about my question to you to examine YOUR relationship and think about it, or about the sabbath analogy? Or are continued personal attacks on me, despite my apology and attemtps to be civil debating a very touchy topic, the best you can come up with?

scigirl

scigirl

Thanks for those passages, Talulah.

I guess he said more than I remember on the subject. But it does appear that even Jesus himself wasn't that concerned with the subject (Paul on the other hand. . . who was it here that wanted to rename Christianity "Paulianity" because a lot of tenets of C are based on his stuff, and not the teachings of Jesus? Anyway I digress. . . )

Of course I don't really care what Jesus thought, since I am an atheist. But it is interesting that certain Christians spend so much time on this particular issue, that really wasn't mentioned by Jesus that much.

I still have yet to see a convincing argument why the bible was wrong on slavery, but right on homosexuality. It wasn't for lack of trying (at the Baptist Board - they practically either had to say "slavery is ok and Godly" to justify their homophobia. Oh and these people were homophobes, according to all definitions of the word from that web site. It was fun to watch them squirm (Neil and Joshua might remember that debate). My absolute favorite was when a guy was protesting some right i wanted to give to gays and he said, "I don't want my children's bus driver to be having sex on the bus!" Kind of like Geo's little outburst about dildos at the Gay Pride Parade, only way more retarded.

I became absolutely hysterical with laugher (well, DUH i don't either - gay OR straight - I want my bus driver to watch the freakin ROAD), but then I realized that many of the Baptists do think about gay people in this fashion - they are rabid with lust for every man on earth and you better watch out.

No Geo I don't want to see the dildo. I want to see all people treated with respect. I am making an effort to not lump all christians in the same group, but I don't see reciprocity where they are concerned. Gay people are all flamers trying to get in thier pants. Actually if I had the same views of gays that many Christians do, I'd probably be scared too. Problem is - fear does weird things to people. Like. . . cause them to become bigots.

scigirl

Edited to add... about that crazy poster at the BB - really wish I could remember who that was (he might be over here heh - but since they deleted all the evil atheist posts, I can't exactly go and find it).

We were talking about whether or not gay people should have the right to marry, and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, he blurts out this, "well I don't want farm schools to start teaching classes on 'how to have sex with sheep,' or my daughter's school bus driver to be having sex with a man on the bus!"

Again, I reiterate - I don't think that most people are homophobes because of religion. In this man's case, it's because of really freaky views on what homosexuality is!! However, being a Baptist didn't exactly help matters much.

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: scigirl ]</p>

Mageth

I really don't understand Xian's stand on Homosexuality is a choice. IMO, whether choice or not, what difference does it make? The fact is that there are gays and lesbians, and they are people just like us (and in some cases, they are us). Gays and lesbians are not evil, and their sex lives are their concern, not ours. And, IMO, evil is committed against them when they are judged and condemned based on unclear religious texts that were written 2000+ years ago in a primitive, religiously (and otherwise) intolerant society and age.

GeoTheo

Here are some of my thoughts on the issue since last night:
First of all, as a Christian, I reserve the right to question any particular belief or doctrine held by other Christians while still partaking in a living relationship with my Savior, JC.
So with that I would like to head off any of the arguements that go somthing like: "No, you don't believe that, you believe thus and so.."
I am the one in charge of what I believe.
Here is my take on the issue:
One factor in this issue is that Christianity appears to be suffering some decline in this country and in Europe as a dominant worldview.
Laws on the books often reflect a more biblical view of morality that may be out of touch with current fads. It is very unstylish, to believe, for example that sex before marriage is a sin, or that having children out of wedlock is irresponsible.
Nonetheless there are laws on the books that ban certian sexual practices.
Christians, want to keep the status quo, because it more closely reflects their beliefs. Most don't do much about it, but whine. Some pray, others participate in political activism. Certian groups like reconstructionists see legislative control as a means of spreading the gospel or something.
They would really like to see a Theocracy. People like DR. James Kenedey. Others aren't quite so extreme but are influenced by this idea. Others see this as a bad idea from looking at Church history and the persecution that results from state churches. For example, anabaptists, suffered more at the hands of the reformers than they did from the Catholics. I think it is important to remember that.
I am of the mindset that seperation of Church and state is a good thing. I learned this in a conservative Baptist Bible college, so this is not a minority opinion.
Obviously, I don't cringe when I hear the word "God" in a public place. I think people who do are silly. I am sure there are atheists who would agree. Watered down public prayers to some vague deity, "God", written on money, or a validictorian thanking Jesus are no threats to democracy IMO.
If a muslim wants to thank allah, or an indian wants to thank Krishna, my panties do not get into a twist. So it is not hard for me to imagine that atheists can show equal charity and tolerance.
But the main point is: There may come a time when American morality in general does not resemble that of Christianity.
I see no reason to speed up the process. But I am not a political activist in legislating morality either.
Christianity grew rather quickly in ancient Rome where homosexuality was quite widespread. I would say even Universal. For example the Spartans were sexually segregated at a young age and there is much evidence of widespread homosexuality and pederasty. The male figure is depicted in art more so than the female figure as a thing of beauty.
And, due to the general climate of coservatism, in textbooks, you may not see much of it, but there is a good deal of Greek and Roman art depicting homosexual acts.
Women were often thought of as neccessary for having babies, but the greatest sexual pleasure was among men. This would lead me to believe, that homosexuality is open to anyone who wants to engage in it. It can become popular and widespread. Reports are coming out that it is also widespread in muslim countries.
I have the view that homosexuality is "normal" in the sense that it is part of human behavior. I would not phrase my belief that I believe it is "unnatural" If people have been doing it for thousands of years it is obviously natural.
Perhaps it is even more pleasurable than heterosexual sex. The Greeks seemed to think so.
I don't think the simplistic genetic predeterminism so popular today, fits reality.
I have even talked to homosexuals who find it objectionable, since it impies that they are abnormal; that there is somthing wrong with being a homosexual. I have also heard interviews with lesbians explaining why they chose to be a lesbian, and then catching themselves, not wanting to offend the pc people and throwing in how they were "probably born that way also" Perhaps their choice instantaneously mutated their DNA. I think not.
But wheras I find it natural for people to do all sorts of things, my moral code is based on the Bible. It really deals with how I behave and does not command me to tell others how to behave. I will share with people what I believe to be the gospel and God's plan for mankind. They may be convicted from reading the Bible that homosexuality is a sin and want to repent. I have encountered a couple people like this and I helped them the best I could. They saw the gay lifestyle as ugly and selfish. Perhaps they are not pc.
But I believe them.
So I would say my belief that homosexuality is a sin, based on the Bible is not bigotry. Since I do not require anyone to follow it unless by choice.

Bree

SciGirl - you're wonderful .

Now, a few questions for you, Geo.

I, for one, could really care less if you like gays or lesbians (however, it is interesting to note that you limit your discussion of homosexuality to gay men). I don't care if you visit Fred Phelps' <a href="http://www.godhatesfags.com" target="_blank">GodHatesFags.com</a> website every ten minutes. Really. I don't care.

What I do care about is this: I don't project my "lifestyle" on you. I don't hold hands in public with my partner. I don't put my arm around my partner, or kiss my partner, or even hug my partner when I am not in a safe area. I don't force my "lifestyle" on you. I certainly don't want you to force your "lifestyle" on me.

Let me ask you this: in your eyes, would the world be a better place if everyone simply followed one set code of morality? Would that make everything that is wrong with the world better? It seems as if that's what you're saying - that the world is going to down in the proverbial handbasket because people aren't following the Bible. You say that you do not "require anyone to follow it [your code of morality] except by choice" but you insist on condeming and downright being mean to the people that don't agree with you and don't follow your line of thinking. Just look at the insults you've thrown about here - do you think Jesus would do the same?

I am also quite interested in your notion that homosexual unions are NEVER monogamous. First off, I'd like to mention that heterosexual unions are not 100% monogamous either - there are millions of straight relationships that are fraught with infidelity, something that I see as a sad, sad thing [editor's note: open relationships are a different topic and I do not count this as infidelity]. Second of all, I'd like to mention that Jekyll and I have been 100% monogamous during our entire 6 year relationship (mind you, I'm 20 and she's 21 - we're the proverbial high-school sweethearts) and the only time that monogamy was threatened was when I was sexually assaulted by a man during my junior year in high school.

There, now you can say you know at least one couple who doesn't fit the bill .

I wish you'd post more, Geo - that way SciGirl, myself, and everyone else here can work on educating you about minority groups. The more you know - and the more people you know that break your preconceived notions - the better you'll be as a person. Just imagine what the world would be like if everyone were open to learning about other human beings!

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Bree ]</p>

FreeToThink

Few things prove to me more that Christianity is just a big "in-group" than the contentious behavior of the Christians. If they really had a super powerful entity existing within them that made them all loving and kind, then I would think they would show it. But time, and time, and time again - they don't.

They're just like the Trekkies who get all pissed when you suggest that a Star Destroyer can blow up the Enterprise.

Queen of Swords