Clutch

Of course they intend to accomplish something through their prayer. The mistake is in thinking that the only way to accomplish something is through persuasion. JL Austin, innit? I can bring about my being married by uttering "I thee wed" in the right circumstances. But the purpose of such an utterance is hardly to persuade anyone.

The idea is not be that one prays in order to provide God with some evidence that one has the right state of mind. The idea is that the praying itself is a necessary condition on having the right state of mind; that there is something performative to the supplication. Being in the right state of mind to accept God's grace requires -- I'm suggesting -- admitting your need for God to yourself, and hearing yourself say this out loud is the canonical means of acheiving such a state of mind.

If I had to defend prayer against the incoherence of persuading an omnipot omnimath, that's how I'd go at it. Again, the problem will be with the god's moral character, since he comes across as a punctilious egomaniac.

Gemma Therese

There are four types of prayer:

thanksgiving
praise
contrition
petition

Only the last one has anything to do with "asking for something".

To answer your original question, the way I believe it is that, in its purest form, a prayer of petition is less about "asking for something" and more about being open to God's will in one's life.

Gemma Therese

Oxymoron

God is omniptotent: he/she/it already knows you are grateful. This therefore affects nothing.

Grovelling to the almighty seems similarly pointless.

God knows that you are sorry, so why bother?

What a load of tosh. Prayers either do more than change the mental state of the prayer, or they do not. If the former - assuming the existence of a deity who Gives A Damn - then your statement is baloney. If the latter, I fail to see the point of praying other than as a purely meditative act.

Gemma Therese

I do not think one can understand prayer unless one prays.

A little humility would do you some good.

Gemma Therese

Oxymoron

Well that's the end of that debate, then.

Sorry, Gemma. I can be a bit abrasive when I am in full flow. However, since you know very little of me, you are in no position to judge what I do and do not need. Humility: kettle, pot, accusations regarding albedo?

Technogeek

Mmm...nothing like the taste of strawmen in the evening, huh?

7thangel

Can you prove that to me and let us see if you knew what I mean. Maybe you are misunderstanding me.

SRB

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SRB

Is the idea that John Doe needs to have the right state of mind for God to fulfil his wishes? An effective way for John Doe to bring about the right state of mind is for him to ask God for the thing he wants. Have I got it right?

SRB

Clutch

Well, probably no Christian would frame it as a constraint upon God's ability. God could do whatever, if he pleased, but for the fulfillment of a prayer to be good, it has to involve the right sort of supplicationary mindset (or abasement?) from the prayor. Saying out loud "I need your help" would be part of this. (Ish.)