xian

is it perfect? loving? merciful? eternal?

Hawkingfan

All of that and more (and it exists, as Gary points out).

xian

So your being possesses all the logical necessary attributes of the GPB....a being defined by logic long before you were ever born.

i am curious, however, why you would assign the letters "I", "P", and "U" to name this being?

granted, I guess it doesn't matter what ASCII sequence we apply to this being given the numerous languages on this planet....but I do find it interesting why you are selecting those 3 letters to label this already identified, pre-existing being defined by logic?

Mageth

lol, that first quote isn't even about Allah...that is a Hindu Veda. not sure why that was in there..

lol, yes it is a Hindu Veda, and is used in a holistic argument for Allah here.

I guess you'd have to ask them why they include it in their holistic argument; while you're there, you can ask them why they include the OT in their holistic argument. (Note: this site seems to be some sort of "special" version of Islam; I don't know if all moslems would agree with the site. Nevertheless, it's an Islamic religion that's making a holistic argument for a GPB Allah).

The same site, btw, touts the NT in their holistic argument, as summarized here:

""Submission" is the religion whereby we recognize God's absolute authority, and reach an unshakable conviction that God ALONE possesses all power; no other entity possesses any power that is independent of Him. [Sounds like a GPB to me - mageth]. The natural result of such a realization is to devote our lives and our worship absolutely to God ALONE. This is the First Commandment in all the scriptures, including the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Final Testament (Quran). "


As for the rest of your post, I'll quote you:

i have tried holistic arguments before in internet forums...it is futile. utterly futile. where no single part of a holistic argument is enough in and of itself to conclude the premises, yet when people rebut holistic arguments they piece-meal them like a butcher chopping up ground beef, tearing them up into shredded confetti. It is a futile endeavor to say the least. Atheists (in my experience) just do not grant credence to holistic arguments, which is unfortunate.

In your post, you're guilty of doing to the Islamic holistic argument just what you accuse atheists of doing to your holistic argument.

Allah has many references to attributes of the GPB in the Qu'ran. This is not significant in any religion.

Including yours, I assume? And are you forgetting the OT, which the Moslems incorporate into their religion, and their other holy texts?

They simply leave out some of those attributes, which end up in the result of non-GPB.

Attributes of Allah

"And to Allah alone belong all perfect attributes [emphasis mine - sounds like the GPB to me]. So call Him by these. And leave alone those who deviate from the right way with respect to His Attributes." (7:181).

Secondly, it is one thing to define God as the GPB, it is another thing to worship God as such. Islamic theology is fundamentally flawed in that it espouses that a finite human can earn infinite favor with God by finite actions. This is a fundamental logical flaw in the Islamic concept of God, and is philosophically impossible, not to mention.

Why "philosophically impossible"? I think you mean "Christianically impossible."

From the site above:

"Islam is not just a religion but a complete code for life. One needs to have firm and absolute belief in the Unity of Allah and Muhammad (peace and blessings be on him) as his Servant and Messenger before one can begin to think about becoming a Muslim. The feeling has to come from within. Indeed it happens when Allah puts the truth in one’s heart."

To become Moslem, one must utter, in truth, the Shahadah (declaration of faith):

"I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah, the One, without any partner. And I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and His Messenger. "

Of course, after the Shahadah, there are laws etc. that one must follow to illustrate that your faith is real. This is also seen as a way to strengthen one's personal relationship with Allah, BTW.

"The faith is that one recognizes God at heart, accepts Him verbally and acts on His commandments." (Ibni Majah)

All in all, I don't see much difference in (practicing) the Moslem faith than in (practicing) the Xian faith. Both must believe, must confess their belief, and must act on their belief. Both have "laws" that one should follow. The only difference (and IMO, this favors Islam) is that in Islam no one had to get killed to get you in.

Furthermore, Allah commands believers to regularly spite their enemies, going fully against the logical attribute of a forgiving and merciful GPB.

Ever read the OT? Further, many Moslems would explain to you how that's not part of their religion, at least not now. I'm sure you'd use a similar argument in decrying the OT wargod.

Muhammad was a man of the sword. A raging, violent man that converted people by force.

An ad hominem, obviously, as Muhammed's actions neither prove nor disprove the Islam faith/Allah as GPB.

This goes strictly against the GPB as a being that acknowledges the free-will of man.

Ever hear about the Christian crusaders that executed Jews in Europe on the way to the Crusades? From here::

Note: I'm not claiming that proves or disproves anything about Xianity, other than that xianity, as well as Islam, has been misused.

As Muhammad himself said,
"I have been ordered to fight against the people untilthey testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle,and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity..." (Hadiths Vol. 1, 2:24).

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:29)

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
(Surah 8:12)

"make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

these are not one time commands to take out an evil city, or dethrone a villanous king or ruler, but these are continuous commands for daily life, and not reflecting well upon the Muslim claim of GPB.

The entire Old Testament is a book of war – combat approved by God, sometimes ordered by God and often directed by God, not to mention the Flood. It doesn't reflect too well on the J/C claim of GPB, either. If you want, I could pull up some scriptures, but I'm sure you're already "holistically" familiar with them.

Further, some of the potential future actions ascribed to God in Revelation don't reflect too well on the J/C claim of GPB. And what's with the "believe or be cast into hell" bit? Both xianity and Islam are guilty of this monstrosity.

In addition Surah 4:34-35 authorizes any muslim man to physcially beat his wives (or wife) if they are not submitting to him.

Where is the scripture that says "Spare the rod, spoil the child"? There's another, I believe, that recommends (commands, really) stoning to death of a rebellious child. Then there's Paul's commands about a wife's relationship to her husband to worry about. And then there are these examples from Exodus:

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property]."
Exodus 21:26-27 "And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake."

Further, the NT falls short on denouncing slavery, as well; the closest it gets is recommending that believing masters treat their believing slaves "equally."

Now, are those commandments of the same GPB you are talking about, or aren't they?

SO, while Islam has some claims of God as having Attributes of the GPB, in practice this is not the case....and other necessary attributes of the GPB are either missing, or altogether contradictory.

"And to Allah alone belong all perfect attributes."

Remember, Islam incorporates the OT definition/attributes of god, the God of Abraham, into its holistic argument, so depending upon how you incorporate the OT into your holistic argument, you'd have to argue against your own holy scripture.

Hawkingfan

Yes, my being possesses all the necessary attributes of the GPB.[deleted]

But the "greatest" attribute of the IPU is that he sends Christians to hell when he judges them when they die! He puts them In a magic acid-like Piss-pool of Unbelievers. (Maybe that's where "I-P-U" comes from?)

HRG

First. "identified, pre-existing" requires an identity and uniqueness proof, which you haven't delivered.

And as long as you haven't given an actual definition of the relation "greater than", the GPB does not even exist as a concept, and its attributes cannot be logically necessary. There is certain no logical requirement to include a particular property in the definition; a Mongolian warrior would maintain that mercy is for weaklings, thus no merciful being could ever be a candidate for GPB - and there is no way you could logically refute him.

Thus at the risk of sounding obnoxious, I repeat my request: please give us an objective definition of "greater than". To state that it includes all positive properties is insufficient, since the evaluation of a property as positive or negative is made on a personal and quite arbitrary basis. See the example about "merciful".

Regards,
HRG.

ax

hmmmm, I wonder how the trinity doctrine fit's in to all this!