Mashriqi Mercenary

you're welcome godfry !
Unforunately I dont have a lot of information on this subject or the memory of sources in which I read about this theory that Zoroaster might not be a single person but a collection of priest. I think Sandra Mackey a scholar on Iranian society has mentioned this in one of her books. Plus other scholars such as Walter Hinz place zoroaster's date even further around 1400-1000 B.C and hence perhaps at a time when persians didnt even establish themselves as a distinct entity. Other beleive that Zoroaster dies much late as late as the 6th century B.C circa 550 B.C. It is known that zorastarians were persecuted at first by the Achaeminids before they adopted it as a state religion and cemented it to the persian identity. During the persecution some believe that Zoroaster along with his fw disciples escaped to Gandhara in what is today northern Paksitan where he found refuge. Certain excavation from the region i think give impetus to this theory that Zoroaster might have been a contemporary of Budhha. And the fact that those seeking refuge were a group of people rather than a single person might have sparked the controversy that zoroaster might've been a cult of priests who preached fire worship and have been immortalized into the name of one person.

godfry n. glad

Thanks, again.

With the two names you've provided, I can begin looking. I'll get back with what I find.

Best,

godfry n. glad

111111

Zoroaster, or under whatever name this Enlightened Soul operated under, was truly gifted by God with a knowledge of the dualistic nature of Mankind. We are, as a species, equal parts good and evil, righteous and unrighteous.

Zonk

Zarathustra taught us the Overman.

I prefer that contribution over that of his historical counterpart.

Amit Misra

The mashriqui mercenary (I'd only heard of the hoor !) wrote:...and in a related thread, azidhak wants to talk about the Avesta.

Any linguists around to contribute to the dating of old man (men? people?) Z vis a vis the Avesta-e-Zend (Zendavesta?)?

My miniscule awareness reminds me that Vedic sanskrit and the language of the Avesta share several traits. Is it safe to assume that Z had had his innings by the time the Avesta was compiled? Would that place him (them) in the Rg vedic period (ca. 2000 BC?)

karthik

In Zoroastrianism "Asura" is the highest deity while in Hinduism it represents the a type of Demon.

godfry n. glad

Well, I got ahold of Sandra Mackey's book, _The Iranians: From Zoroaster to Islam_ and it does indeed have a passing mention of the possibility of Zoroaster having been a group of teachers. "Passing mention" doesn't do it justice, though. "Glib footnote" is what it was. On page 15. Once sentence without reference or support.

Man, was I disappointed.

godfry n. glad

This from _Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices_ by Mary Boyce, 1979, Routledge, London, pg.18:

"Zoroaster's date cannot be established with any precision, since he lived in what, for his people, were prehistoric times. The language of the Gathas is archaic, and close to that of the Rigveda (whose composition has been assigned to about 1700 BCE and onwards); and the picture of the world to be gained from them is correspondingly ancient, that of a Stone Age society. Some allowance may have to be made for literary conservatism; and it is possible that the 'Avestan' people (as Zoroaster's own tribe is called for want of a better name) were poor or isolated, and not so rapidly influenced by the developments of the Bronze Age. It is only possible therefore to hazard a reasoned conjecture that Zoroaster lived some time between 1700 and 1500 BCE."

Sarpedon

Also in Hinduism, a god is a deva

in Zoroastrianism, a deva is a devil

godfry n. glad

This from _In Search of Zarathustra_ by Paul Kriwaczek, 2003, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, pp. 208-9:

"What, then, can we know or guess about teh Prophet Zarathustra, from the writings and from the religion itself? Most scholars and Zoroastrians alike are convinced that in the Gathas, the liturgical hymns that now form part of the Avesta, the Zoroastrian texts, we hear the authentic voice of Zarathustra the man:

<inserted here is an eight line hymn>

In its original tongue, this tragic petition to God does point us to a place and time. The language is very archaic, a dialect associated with the north-eastern end of Old Persian's range, with the lands around the Oxus. It is also very close indeed to the oldest layer of Sanskrit, the language of the Vedas, the sacred texts of the Hindus. The similarities are apparent even to those who know nothing of either language.

<insert here a word by word comparison of the same line from the Avesta in Gathic Persian and Sanskrit>

The two languages--little more than dialects of one tongue--are so close that not many centuries can have separated them from their common origin, a the time just before the ancestors of the Persians and the Indian Aryans split into two camps, concentrated around the Oxus and the Indus rivers. Since most researchers date the oldest of the Vedas to between 1500 and 1200 BC, the Gathas of Zarathustra are unlikely to originate from much later.

This suggests that the prophet lived some time around 1200 BC, a period traditionally ascribed to Moses at the other end of the Middle East, making Zarathustra, like Moses, a prophet of the late Bronze Age. Some, though, put him even earlier, between 1700 and 1500 BC, which would align him rather with Abraham, in the middle of the Bronze."

This author has made no mention of a scholarly group of teachers or any discussion of alternatives to the received wisdom of Zarathustra as a single and singular prophet and teacher.

I do note here that the author makes comparisons to Hebraic patriarchs, both of which, in my estimation, are likely to be mythic hero fabrications, per the "minimalist" Copenhagen School.

godfry