Mageth

from the "conditions" come the possibility of the event. it truly is funny how abiogenesis is suddenly a deterministic event, when the conditions themselves are enourmously improbable.

It would be even funnier, perhaps, if anyone was claiming abiogenesis was simply a deterministic event.

Stephen T-B

Certainty exists in the midst of uncertainty.

Two very powerful magnets are certain to be pulled together when their opposite poles come within range of each other.
If these two magnets are caught up in a chaotic system, the moment at which that event will occur cannot be predicted. But it will occur sooner or later.

Hence certainty in the midst of uncertainty.

Not, I think, a very difficult idea to grasp....

Mageth

Not, I think, a very difficult idea to grasp....

In the midst of uncertainty, I'm certain it is for some.

Amaranth

*chuckle*

And the existance of a massively power, sentient creator being is far more probable than these chemical conditions, right? So where did this creator being come from?

Let's recap: We've covered the faith equivocation, and now we're covering the first cause discussion. Once we hit the "begging the question" debate (god inspired the bible, and god exists because the bible says so), I think we'll have hit all the cliche' arguments.

Mageth

Pascal's Wager still hasn't reared its ugly head.

Amaranth

Damn. I knew I was forgetting at least one.

Add the ontological argument to the list, too.

You know, I'm starting to think we should just make thread covering all of the basic, "novice" apologetics, and how to quickly and efficiently debunk them. Certainly would have helped me when I was a younger agnostic-athiest.

beth

Respectfully Xian, you have yet to provide basis for your claim to possess supernatural ability. You made the claim to. if this ability was granted to you by your god, then wouldn't you want to showcase the wonder? Please, you have been vague in your claims. I can usually tell a theist from a non-theist just from their posts. Then there are some rational theists that are more difficult to assess. I claim to possess none of these abilities, but yet I can do what you claim to do. How do you explain this?

xian

i have power to identify atheists with a high degree of probability.

maybe its a supernatural power?

or perhaps atheism carries with it a generally predictable world view that entails certain predictable conclusions the atheist will make about the universe.


I'm not sure. Some atheists like to deny the latter, leaving me to wonder about the former.

Monkeybot

Here's an analogy:

A man and a woman have unprotected sex repeatedly, in an attempt to conceive a child. There are lots of conditions that are necessary. For example, vaginal penetration must take place. The man must not have a low sperm count. The woman must be at the part of her cycle in which she is ovulating. And lots of other conditions (I've heard pH levels in the womb make a difference, but I'm not 100% sure on that).

A lot of "random" factors must be in play in order for the sperm to reach the egg. However, once the sperm and egg actually meet, THEY FORM A ZYGOTE. Period, end of story. This part of things is not random, it is a well-observed scientific fact.

With regards to abiogenesis: it may be "random" that all these chemicals happened to be in the same place at once. However it is NOT random that once these chemicals come together, they are going to bond in a certain way. Seriously. I invite you to combine any two elements from the periodic table 100 times in a row under the same conditions. Please tell me if there is any "randomness" to the way they combine. :banghead:

Monkeybot

How is it in any way supernatural to ask loaded questions and guess someone's religious belief????

I mean if I went and asked "Are you against abortion, do you favor tax cuts, do you like Pres. Bush," would it be supernatural if I guessed 8 times out of 10 these people were Republicans??