Freethought & Rationalism Archive

KnightWhoSaysNi · 02-20-2003, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ThinkDifferent

Please fell free to post anything and everything that you can predict for an atheist dominated world.

Personally, I don't think the world would be that different. Being an atheist doesn't make you immune to greed, evil, dogmatism, and hatred. Stalinism is an example.

It certainly doesn't make you immune to pseudoscience or wacky beliefs either. Look at the Raelians!

JEST2ASK · 02-20-2003, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim
[B] Priorities
For example it seems that there is a movement to convince Christians not to buy SUV's or other upscale vehicles .... Check your church parking lot this Sunday and see how many are for sale.

My reply : Why's that? God only permits entry to heaven for those who died in accidents while driving SUVs nowadays? Who comes out with all this crap anyway?

PS : Malaysia don't have much SUVs on the road, got another type of car called Proton (Yes ... like the charged particle) - a locally made (about 80 - 90% of it anyway) vehicle. Government do encourage Malaysians to buy it but I have yet to hear at "fitrah" (religious orders) concerning the buying Proton cars only.

The movement is based on the idea of good stewardship ....

and being ecologically responsible ....

-RRH- · 02-20-2003, 07:43 PM

Hard to say. Theism affects different people differently.

Maybe less war. I can't really say how many wars have been fought for religious reasons, probably not a lot.

I say this because usually so-called "religious" wars also served more secular purposes for the politicians behind them.

But the politicians prefer the religious reasons, because they often can't get support for the secular reasons. Without religious justification, I expect fewer wars to be fought.

Maybe more crime. Apparently Seraphim's religious beliefs are the only thing restraining him from a life on the wrong side of the law. Who can say how many people there are like him? I'd wager pretty low numbers, though. There's plenty of religious criminals, and atheists don't show any higher incidence of criminal behaviour.

Yes, I have seen the stats that say there are fewer atheists in prison than in the general population. But I won't go so far as to say that increased atheism will decrease the crime rate. There are other factors at play in prison, such as increased pressure to conform. (And maybe atheists just don't get caught.)

Maybe faster scientific development. Without creationists mucking around, there will be better science education. Some of the impedence to research is religiously justified, though much is reasonable caution or non-religious hysteria.

So, in all, we have fewer wars, a very small increase in crime, and better science. Overall, what I would see as an improvement. But this is all wild speculation, isn't it?

(Oh, and of course, more people will know the Truth. Can't forget that benefit, now can we?

)

02-20-2003, 07:55 PM

The movement is based on the idea of good stewardship ....

and being ecologically responsible ....

My reply : Good stewardship? You mean "Lead others by example"?

Ecological responsiblity comes from using any product that have effect on environment, not only SUVs. Church should have put some time out of religious sermons and talk to people about having good, clean world to live in ... Hell ... shouldn't we all be doing that?

I guess the Ecological stuff I can accept easily, they shouldn't put "Christians should buy" tag on it though ...

ThinkDifferent · 02-20-2003, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RRH
Hard to say. Theism affects different people differently.

Maybe less war. I can't really say how many wars have been fought for religious reasons, probably not a lot.

I say this because usually so-called "religious" wars also served more secular purposes for the politicians behind them.

But the politicians prefer the religious reasons, because they often can't get support for the secular reasons. Without religious justification, I expect fewer wars to be fought.

Maybe more crime. Apparently Seraphim's religious beliefs are the only thing restraining him from a life on the wrong side of the law. Who can say how many people there are like him? I'd wager pretty low numbers, though. There's plenty of religious criminals, and atheists don't show any higher incidence of criminal behaviour.

Yes, I have seen the stats that say there are fewer atheists in prison than in the general population. But I won't go so far as to say that increased atheism will decrease the crime rate. There are other factors at play in prison, such as increased pressure to conform. (And maybe atheists just don't get caught.)

Maybe faster scientific development. Without creationists mucking around, there will be better science education. Some of the impedence to research is religiously justified, though much is reasonable caution or non-religious hysteria.

So, in all, we have fewer wars, a very small increase in crime, and better science. Overall, what I would see as an improvement. But this is all wild speculation, isn't it?

(Oh, and of course, more people will know the Truth. Can't forget that benefit, now can we?)

Best reply so far.

So you are basically predicting that crime at the individual level might increase slightly. I disagree. It will increase a lot. Once people realize that there are not going to be punished unless they are caught(as GOD isn't there to keep track), the crime rate is bound to increase. I agree with you when tou say that wars(organized crimes) will definitely come down. Though most wars have had a political reason so far in the history, most of them have religion being misused by leaders to gain support and create the "us vs them" hysteria.

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim
My reply : It will be a dead world ... with people walking around like machines, accepting data without bother processing it since it is already processed by some "Intelligent" unit called science which is mastered by another bunch of machines called Scientist.

This statement is entirely true for today's theist world. Theists are walking around like machines, accepting data without bother processing it since it is already processed by some "Intelligent" unit called GOD which is mastered by another bunch of machines called PRIESTS. An atheist world will be better as there will be more questioning and not much "accepting data without bother processing" going on.

02-20-2003, 09:47 PM

Maybe more crime. Apparently Seraphim's religious beliefs are the only thing restraining him from a life on the wrong side of the law. Who can say how many people there are like him? I'd wager pretty low numbers, though. There's plenty of religious criminals, and atheists don't show any higher incidence of criminal behaviour.

My reply : Nope ... facing all those stupid consequences of walking on the otherside of the law restraining me.

Jumping off a cliff is no big deal and hardly worthy any effect, but having to endure the pain of hitting every thing from a pebble size of a person's teeth to that of a size of a boulder makes me wonder whether it is worth doing it in the first place.

But I do agree in increase of crime in Atheist world. An atheist who doesn't believe in afterlife could easily indulge himself in a life of crime if he believe such activity will bring him more benefits (such as wealth, power etc). I mean, what is the worse that could possibly happen to him? He could die and he won't be coming back to face his actions. Isn't that worth taking risk of indulging yourself?

Oh, and of course, more people will know the Truth. Can't forget that benefit, now can we?

My reply : Truth?
If scientists now can explain ALL within this lifetime, the next generation scientists will be out of work.

If scientists in the past were so advanced in technology that their findings are accurate, then scientists in this era won't bother to rexamine their findings and scientists of the future will not bother of examining the findings we make now in this era.

Truth, my friend is what you perceive and what you understand.

02-20-2003, 10:05 PM

This statement is entirely true for today's theist world. Theists are walking around like machines, accepting data without bother processing it since it is already processed by some "Intelligent" unit called GOD which is mastered by another bunch of machines called PRIESTS. An atheist world will be better as there will be more questioning and not much "accepting data without bother processing" going on.

My reply : Not all theists are like that, there are some who ask questions and have answers from their scriptures - Hindus and Buddhists come to the mind.

Only Abrahamic religions seems to be specialists in making close-minded people and the evidence is its history alone. Non Abrahamic religion followers attended to have a long, peaceful lives where they co-existed with everyone (Atheists included) in peace. Are you going to deny that?

Atheist world will not be better because they will be more questions asked than answers provided.
And I don't think everyone will accept a single universal answer in any topic .... have you ever come across any topic where EVERYONE in a room agreed to a certain statement in unison?

Sorry, Humans weren't made to answer questions alone, they were made to ask first. You give one answer, they will generate two more in that place.

Fiach · 02-20-2003, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ThinkDifferent

We are currently living in a 90% theist world. But as science answers more and more questions, it can be expected that this percentage is bound to change in favor of atheism.

I am not sure that this will happen. I am convinced that people do not choose to believe in gods or choose to be Atheists. Rougly 20% of Humans are atheists. I suspect that will not change much except local areas of higher or lower density. Brain structure is genetically determined. I don't think we will evolve fast enough. In fact, that religious couples have many times more children than non-theists, that will give them a population advantage as it did in early human evolution, and why humans most of them, inherited the religion gene.

I would like to invite you all to use your creativity and predict how a 90% atheist world would be?

If it happened certain things could be predicted. Atheists in general are more moral than theists. Prison statistics show that Atheists, 8% of Americans are only 0.05% of the prisoners. Atheists have the lowest divorce rates than any religious denomination, due in part to our more rational brains and the importance of our word and truth. We cannot get wrongs erased by being born again or confession. That make us behave. We also are more educated and have less need to rob or steal, and if a few do, are less likely to be caught than the religious "C" student. So the world would be more moral but society would be more dissenting and tending to anarchy. We are more moral but less obedient, less submissive to authority, and therefore likely to resist government impositon.

Will people be more moral or less?

Yes

What will be the postive & negative developments?

[i]Positive. Great advances in science and learning, and technology. Decreased violence. Greater tolerance. Negative: less order, less discipline, less cohesiveness, less submission to authority, more arguments over scientific technicalities. Perhaps we would be more difficult to mobilise and motivate for war. Religion is a major motivator in war, without it, maybe we would be less effective against alien invaders than Christians and Muslims.[/i

Will there be more peace as religion related tensions disappear? etc.

Undoubtedly.

Please fell free to post anything and everything that you can predict for an atheist dominated world.

Sorry, but sadly, I don't think it will happen. Religion evolved over 3 million years and was a factor that aided H. sapeins to eliminate his hominid rivals.

Also, will the world ever become 90% atheist at all?

Little chance of a world 90% Atheist. The majority of humans do not have frontal networking circuits sufficient and efficient enough to sift out rubbish from reallity. The Rubbish (UFOs, ESP, Talking to spirits, belief in miracles, and Christian mythology itself) will continue to get through the Bullshit filter in most people's frontal lobes.

Fiach

echoes · 02-21-2003, 09:50 PM

A lot of the benefits (less crime, less divorce, etc.) attributed to atheists could also be attributed to the fact that atheists are usually well educated.

Would an uneducated atheist be just as unlikely as a well educated one to get a divorce or go to prison? I would guess that they would be more likely.

Just being an atheist alone would in my estimation probably not lead to those benefits unless they were well-educated atheists as well. And I don't see the vast majority of the world becoming well educated anytime soon.

ashibaka · 02-21-2003, 09:57 PM

If it wasn't state-enforced atheism, 90% atheism would mean the world was 90% literate and 90% well-educated.

That would be pretty

, but it is also completely impossible.

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02-20-2003, 07:43 PM	#23
-RRH- Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Winnipeg Posts: 2,047	Hard to say. Theism affects different people differently. Maybe less war. I can't really say how many wars have been fought for religious reasons, probably not a lot. I say this because usually so-called "religious" wars also served more secular purposes for the politicians behind them. But the politicians prefer the religious reasons, because they often can't get support for the secular reasons. Without religious justification, I expect fewer wars to be fought. Maybe more crime. Apparently Seraphim's religious beliefs are the only thing restraining him from a life on the wrong side of the law. Who can say how many people there are like him? I'd wager pretty low numbers, though. There's plenty of religious criminals, and atheists don't show any higher incidence of criminal behaviour. Yes, I have seen the stats that say there are fewer atheists in prison than in the general population. But I won't go so far as to say that increased atheism will decrease the crime rate. There are other factors at play in prison, such as increased pressure to conform. (And maybe atheists just don't get caught.) Maybe faster scientific development. Without creationists mucking around, there will be better science education. Some of the impedence to research is religiously justified, though much is reasonable caution or non-religious hysteria. So, in all, we have fewer wars, a very small increase in crime, and better science. Overall, what I would see as an improvement. But this is all wild speculation, isn't it? (Oh, and of course, more people will know the Truth. Can't forget that benefit, now can we?)

02-20-2003, 07:55 PM	#24
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	The movement is based on the idea of good stewardship .... and being ecologically responsible .... My reply : Good stewardship? You mean "Lead others by example"? Ecological responsiblity comes from using any product that have effect on environment, not only SUVs. Church should have put some time out of religious sermons and talk to people about having good, clean world to live in ... Hell ... shouldn't we all be doing that? I guess the Ecological stuff I can accept easily, they shouldn't put "Christians should buy" tag on it though ...

02-20-2003, 09:47 PM	#26
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	Maybe more crime. Apparently Seraphim's religious beliefs are the only thing restraining him from a life on the wrong side of the law. Who can say how many people there are like him? I'd wager pretty low numbers, though. There's plenty of religious criminals, and atheists don't show any higher incidence of criminal behaviour. My reply : Nope ... facing all those stupid consequences of walking on the otherside of the law restraining me. Jumping off a cliff is no big deal and hardly worthy any effect, but having to endure the pain of hitting every thing from a pebble size of a person's teeth to that of a size of a boulder makes me wonder whether it is worth doing it in the first place. But I do agree in increase of crime in Atheist world. An atheist who doesn't believe in afterlife could easily indulge himself in a life of crime if he believe such activity will bring him more benefits (such as wealth, power etc). I mean, what is the worse that could possibly happen to him? He could die and he won't be coming back to face his actions. Isn't that worth taking risk of indulging yourself? Oh, and of course, more people will know the Truth. Can't forget that benefit, now can we? My reply : Truth? If scientists now can explain ALL within this lifetime, the next generation scientists will be out of work. If scientists in the past were so advanced in technology that their findings are accurate, then scientists in this era won't bother to rexamine their findings and scientists of the future will not bother of examining the findings we make now in this era. Truth, my friend is what you perceive and what you understand.

02-20-2003, 10:05 PM	#27
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	This statement is entirely true for today's theist world. Theists are walking around like machines, accepting data without bother processing it since it is already processed by some "Intelligent" unit called GOD which is mastered by another bunch of machines called PRIESTS. An atheist world will be better as there will be more questioning and not much "accepting data without bother processing" going on. My reply : Not all theists are like that, there are some who ask questions and have answers from their scriptures - Hindus and Buddhists come to the mind. Only Abrahamic religions seems to be specialists in making close-minded people and the evidence is its history alone. Non Abrahamic religion followers attended to have a long, peaceful lives where they co-existed with everyone (Atheists included) in peace. Are you going to deny that? Atheist world will not be better because they will be more questions asked than answers provided. And I don't think everyone will accept a single universal answer in any topic .... have you ever come across any topic where EVERYONE in a room agreed to a certain statement in unison? Sorry, Humans weren't made to answer questions alone, they were made to ask first. You give one answer, they will generate two more in that place.

02-21-2003, 09:50 PM	#29
echoes Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: PUERTO RICO Posts: 750	A lot of the benefits (less crime, less divorce, etc.) attributed to atheists could also be attributed to the fact that atheists are usually well educated. Would an uneducated atheist be just as unlikely as a well educated one to get a divorce or go to prison? I would guess that they would be more likely. Just being an atheist alone would in my estimation probably not lead to those benefits unless they were well-educated atheists as well. And I don't see the vast majority of the world becoming well educated anytime soon.

02-21-2003, 09:57 PM	#30
ashibaka Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Cloudy Water Posts: 443	If it wasn't state-enforced atheism, 90% atheism would mean the world was 90% literate and 90% well-educated. That would be pretty , but it is also completely impossible.

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