Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GeoTheo · 04-22-2003, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea
As Dave said, you asked for scriptural references.

Why would he care if he reached the Jews first? What _is_ that, if not bigotry? What possible reason could there be to care which race hears about redemption first? Why on earth would one human be more deserving of the message than another?

I'm a white senator and I want to get education to white folks first. That makes me a bigot?

...

"Balance" them with other passages? Why? Do they need to be toned down?

But you asked for an example. I'm not out to "zap" Christians. I do enjoy discussion, though. Sometimes it takes discussion of what's there.

I'm not out to get you just because it doesn't make any sense to me. I look at that claim and say, "now why would anyone say that?" and you give your reason why, and it still doesn't fit, for me. That's a crime? I can't talk about the bible unless I already know the whole thing? What kind of discussion would that be?

Why does it bother you to explain your bible? (genuine confusion)

The idea was that onced he reached the Jews with his message, They would in turn bring it to the rest of the world. Your analagy with the Senator doesn't really fit. Jesus did not believe he was merely teaching people somthing akin to teaching them how to read. He believed His message was for the salvation of Mankind. They had in their Theology that they were God's chosen people so it would be there responsibility to reach the rest of the World.
So he focused first on them, first.

Rhea · 04-22-2003, 12:29 PM

Biff, my man. You're on a rampage today!

Take a breather. They aren't all out to get you. Honest.

beth · 04-22-2003, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
However, I refuse to believe in a God that cannot love and forgive my husband at least as much as I can.

So you are stating that your husband needs forgiving by God because he isn't a member of your sect. He needs "salvation." Shame on you, what a dreadful attitude to have towards people. And your own husband at that.

I think she is saying that if her God is true, she does not believe that he will sentence the unbeliever to hell. I think she is saying that when her husband comes before god, all sins will be firgiven, reguardless of what he does, or does not believe. She also states that she wants no part of a belief in a god who would sentence her husband to hell. I saw nothing shameful about this.

Godless Dave · 04-22-2003, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
However, I refuse to believe in a God that cannot love and forgive my husband at least as much as I can.

So you are stating that your husband needs forgiving by God because he isn't a member of your sect. He needs "salvation." Shame on you, what a dreadful attitude to have towards people. And your own husband at that.

Wildernesse, I would like to defend you against Biff's angry smiley, but I can't do that unless you can tell me what it is you think your husband needs to be forgiven for, and what he needs to be saved from. It would be easy to interpret that as being condescending, but maybe you meant something else.

Rhea · 04-22-2003, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo
The idea was that onced he reached the Jews with his message, They would in turn bring it to the rest of the world. Your analagy with the Senator doesn't really fit. Jesus did not believe he was merely teaching people somthing akin to teaching them how to read. He believed His message was for the salvation of Mankind. They had in their Theology that they were God's chosen people so it would be there responsibility to reach the rest of the World.
So he focused first on them, first.

Right! And my educated white folks will become teachers and bring education to the rest of the population. This _is_ about salvation because education is what brings people to food, healthcare, clothing, shelter. Earthly salvation, shall we say. And white folks know it's their responsibility to teach others. So I'm just focusing on them, first. So that they'll tell others.

Why does that make me a bigot?

...

Can you not see how ANYONE that he taught could take the message? It doesn't matter who he teachers. Whatever number he teaches, of any faith or race, that is the number of missionaries he'll have.

What possible reason could there be to focus on one particular race/faith "first"?

What possible reason could there be to say that?

Unless, knowing his entire audience was bigots, he didn't want to rock the boat too much, maybe? Thought he'd throw in a few "Heathen Mary" jokes just to be accepted? And tell them he was just there for them because...

Why?

And this isn't something minor like reading, mind you. This is ETERNAL SALVATION. And for some reason there is one group that ought to get it FIRST.

Why?

Rhea · 04-22-2003, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave
Wildernesse, I would like to defend you against Biff's angry smiley, but I can't do that unless you can tell me what it is you think your husband needs to be forgiven for, and what he needs to be saved from. It would be easy to interpret that as being condescending, but maybe you meant something else.

I think he's being saved from the abyss he doesn't know about. W was pretty clear about not believing in hell, I thought.

edited, I'd better let her answer. I just didn't get the feeling that the alternative was torture...

GeoTheo · 04-22-2003, 12:40 PM

Rhea,
So If you were Jesus what would you do. Since you obviously don't consider yourself a bigot.

Godless Dave · 04-22-2003, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo
Rhea,
So If you were Jesus what would you do. Since you obviously don't consider yourself a bigot.

If I were Jesus I would have written my teachings down myself instead of relying on a power-mad closeted gay man named Paul to do it for me.

Rhea · 04-22-2003, 12:44 PM

Alas, I am a bigot. I try really hard to shake it. I get totally pissed when I realize society has implanted some bigoted notion in my head (because I don't think it's inborn). But I take comfort in knowing that everything I value rejects bigotry, so my efforts to cleanse myself of it are at least not hindered by things that I value.

What could Jesus have done? One thing possible - not said, "I'm only here for the Jews."

BTW, you mention "chosen people". Can you think of a single religion who did NOT believe they were their god's Chosen People?

Opera Nut · 04-22-2003, 12:47 PM

The Protestants have been just as busy torturing and slaughtering "heathens" as the catholics were in the Inquisition.

Michael Servetus in Transylvania, wrote letters to John Calvin in Geneva insisting on Universal Salvation (Universalism) and monotheism (Unitarianism), denying the divinity of Jesus. This pissed off John Calvin mightily.

In fact, Calvin lured Servetus to Geneva saying he wanted to debate. Instead, Calvin barbecued Michael Servetus on a greenwood fire to inflict maximum pain while burning him alive. Thus he burned the first Unitarian-Universalist.

And then of course in the Americas, the Europeans were busy slaughtering Native Americans and distributing the smallpox and the measles to them, which killed them by the millions. Thus the Europeans were convinced that God was on their side because of their killing germs. Even though they didn't know about germs at the time.

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04-22-2003, 12:29 PM	#102
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	Biff, my man. You're on a rampage today! Take a breather. They aren't all out to get you. Honest.

04-22-2003, 12:40 PM	#107
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	Rhea, So If you were Jesus what would you do. Since you obviously don't consider yourself a bigot.

04-22-2003, 12:44 PM	#109
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	Alas, I am a bigot. I try really hard to shake it. I get totally pissed when I realize society has implanted some bigoted notion in my head (because I don't think it's inborn). But I take comfort in knowing that everything I value rejects bigotry, so my efforts to cleanse myself of it are at least not hindered by things that I value. What could Jesus have done? One thing possible - not said, "I'm only here for the Jews." BTW, you mention "chosen people". Can you think of a single religion who did NOT believe they were their god's Chosen People?

04-22-2003, 12:47 PM	#110
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	The Protestants have been just as busy torturing and slaughtering "heathens" as the catholics were in the Inquisition. Michael Servetus in Transylvania, wrote letters to John Calvin in Geneva insisting on Universal Salvation (Universalism) and monotheism (Unitarianism), denying the divinity of Jesus. This pissed off John Calvin mightily. In fact, Calvin lured Servetus to Geneva saying he wanted to debate. Instead, Calvin barbecued Michael Servetus on a greenwood fire to inflict maximum pain while burning him alive. Thus he burned the first Unitarian-Universalist. And then of course in the Americas, the Europeans were busy slaughtering Native Americans and distributing the smallpox and the measles to them, which killed them by the millions. Thus the Europeans were convinced that God was on their side because of their killing germs. Even though they didn't know about germs at the time.

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