Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David M. Payne · 02-07-2003, 01:19 AM

From another thread, but it has some utility here I believe.

Quote:

Originally posted by Martin Buber
Moon

Who the fuck is that reactionary? You piss me off to the max. I wish you'd get a little first hand revolutionary experience say down in Columbia. Kill a coupla of dozen and see how corrupt all warlords are.

You're constantly talking shit and I'd like you to put up or shut up!

Martin Buber

Quote:

Originally posted by David M. Payne
Martin, Yes it would be nice to see some of these Internet revolutionaries get off their ass and go help their oppressed brothers. But the ones here are the kind that talk the talk, but will never walk the walk. You and I at least went to the dance, though we were lied to about what was going on. Vietnam was a waste of time, people and resources in the end...

Joel, you will find that some people here have something to say, and others have to say something. I do believe you understand the difference.

David

Good night all, see you tomorrow.

David

"God, Marx, and religion, the oldest scam(s) in history, and they still suck them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!

moon · 02-07-2003, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gurdur
Yes of course; Soviet pilots led by Stalin in person won the Battle Of Britain, Stalin and Soviet shock-troops led the North African, Italian and Normandy landings, defeated Rommel at El Alamein, oh, and the Non-Aggression Pact between the Soviet Union and Germany --- leading to the dismemberment of Poland between them --- was all an imperialist lie.

As Amen-Moses aptly put it in another thread in response to, "Now, how did the USSR slay the "Nazi beast?" By retreating?"--

"Nope, by halting the largest invasion ever mounted (up to that point) by any nation on earth and then mounting the largest ever counterstrike in the middle of some of the worst winter weather in the world. From that point onwards Russian forces were going forward and German forces retreating.

Russia had the Eastern front sown up before the US even entered the war and by the time any major theatre was opened up anywhere else in Europe Russia had air superiority and was hammering on the German borders. In comparison to the eastern front Italy and Normandy were tiny side shows."

But, there's more! Gurdur is here to enlighten us about Stalin's betrayals, hoping to slam the commies once again! (Ever willing to show us exactly where his class loylties lie.) Sorry, you aren't going to get any argument from me about Stalin. The USSR defeated the Nazi beast in spite of Stalin.

Gurdur · 02-07-2003, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by moon
.....
But, there's more! Gurdur is here to enlighten us about Stalin's betrayals, hoping to slam the commies once again! (Ever willing to show us exactly where his class loylties lie.) Sorry, you aren't going to get any argument from me about Stalin.

oooo ! But weren't you saying that Stalin was the victim of imperialist lies on another thread ?

moon · 02-07-2003, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gurdur
oooo ! But weren't you saying that Stalin was the victim of imperialist lies on another thread ?

The victim?

For Stalin's actual crimes I have no argument. It's the fake crimes that are the problem.

Gurdur · 02-07-2003, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by moon
The victim?

For Stalin's actual crimes I have no argument.

You admit then that Stalin's Soviet Union helped Germany re-arm and invaded eastern Poland ?

Zar · 02-07-2003, 01:38 AM

Gurdur,

I won't dispute what you say, though I am not as clear on all the details as you seem to be. I'm sure bad stuff went on in that part of the world then and I'm not about to hold that government as being an example above suspicion by any means. The Soviets did seem to pay very dearly for whatever aid they might have given to the Germans. This doesn't really change the idea that governments do crooked stuff, but its an interesting fact to consider generally.

Nira · 02-07-2003, 02:57 AM

Quote:

channel 4 breaks a huge story

"Downing St dossier plagiarised"

"Downing Street was last night plunged into acute international embarrassment after it emerged that large parts of the British government's latest dossier on Iraq - allegedly based on "intelligence material" - were taken from published academic articles, some of them several years old. "

most english news channels and web sites are picking this up but nothing on the american ones...
maybe cause Powell hailed it as proof.....

http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z...06/dossier.html

Quote:

"Downing Street has defended an intelligence dossier of evidence against Iraq after allegations that it included plagiarised material that was 12 years out of date.
The UK intelligence document released on Monday was designed to help win over sceptics by detailing Saddam Hussein's efforts to hide weapons of mass destruction.

But Channel 4 News claimed the document was largely copied from three different articles, including one written by a postgraduate student.

The programme claimed excerpts from a paper relating to the build-up to the 1991 Gulf War by Californian student Ibrahim al-Marashi were lifted into the intelligence document.

But a Downing Street spokesman said the dossier was "accurate" and that the government had never claimed exclusive authorship. "

Dr Rangwala, lecturer in politics at Cambridge University, told the programme that the British Government's dossier was 19 pages long, but most of pages 6 to 16 were copied directly from the student's document word for word.

"Even the grammatical errors."

No wonder they try to keep the 'evidence' a secret, as they say, it's to protect the source.

A pimply grad student with bad grammar.

Vorkosigan · 02-07-2003, 04:50 AM

Good god, that's hilarious.

Vorkosigan · 02-07-2003, 04:54 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by moon
Russia had the Eastern front sown up before the US even entered the war and by the time any major theatre was opened up anywhere else in Europe Russia had air superiority and was hammering on the German borders.

Balderdash. The Eastern Front was sewn up at Kursk in the summer of '43. By then the US had been in almost two years.

The Russians were entirely dependent on the US to keep their war effort up. As we have discussed.

In comparison to the eastern front Italy and Normandy were tiny side shows."

Quite true. With the exception of a couple of panzer units, the west front was fought without serious effects on the Eastern Front. But let's not forget that the strategic bombing campaign tied up thousands of Luftwaffe and Army anti-air units that could have been used to good effect on the eastern front, and German economc, political and military blunders aided the Russians inordinately.

Amen-Moses · 02-07-2003, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by Vorkosigan

Balderdash. The Eastern Front was sewn up at Kursk in the summer of '43. By then the US had been in almost two years.

Kursk was a last ditch attempt at halting the Russian advance, it failed, by Kursk the Germans had been in constant retreat for almost a year. The US did not enter the European war in any great way until 43 themselves and at that time virtually all efforts were towards the planned southern front.

The Russians were entirely dependent on the US to keep their war effort up. As we have discussed.

No, as asserted. The main problem I have with those assertions is that, as you have agreed, the Russians had their front sewn up by mid 43. Now please enlighten me as to how the US supplied all those arms and food to Russia? From my studies only one possible route for supplies remained open, the artic route. This route was seasonal and due to U'boats and Condor patrols was extremely risky (in fact next to the U-boat crews themselve the artic convoy crews had the lowest life expectancy of the war. Only a dribble ever got through that route so maybe there was another route that history seems to have forgotten about? Maybe it was humped over the Himalayas by Yeti's?

Quite true. With the exception of a couple of panzer units, the west front was fought without serious effects on the Eastern Front. But let's not forget that the strategic bombing campaign tied up thousands of Luftwaffe and Army anti-air units that could have been used to good effect on the eastern front, and German economc, political and military blunders aided the Russians inordinately.

The strategic bombing campaign that the US didn't even enter until 1943? I thought the Eastern front was sewn up by then?

Amen-Moses

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02-07-2003, 01:38 AM	#26
Zar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Chicago, IL USA Posts: 3,477	Gurdur, I won't dispute what you say, though I am not as clear on all the details as you seem to be. I'm sure bad stuff went on in that part of the world then and I'm not about to hold that government as being an example above suspicion by any means. The Soviets did seem to pay very dearly for whatever aid they might have given to the Germans. This doesn't really change the idea that governments do crooked stuff, but its an interesting fact to consider generally.

02-07-2003, 04:50 AM	#28
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Good god, that's hilarious.

02-07-2003, 04:54 AM	#29
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	[QUOTE]Originally posted by moon Russia had the Eastern front sown up before the US even entered the war and by the time any major theatre was opened up anywhere else in Europe Russia had air superiority and was hammering on the German borders. Balderdash. The Eastern Front was sewn up at Kursk in the summer of '43. By then the US had been in almost two years. The Russians were entirely dependent on the US to keep their war effort up. As we have discussed. In comparison to the eastern front Italy and Normandy were tiny side shows." Quite true. With the exception of a couple of panzer units, the west front was fought without serious effects on the Eastern Front. But let's not forget that the strategic bombing campaign tied up thousands of Luftwaffe and Army anti-air units that could have been used to good effect on the eastern front, and German economc, political and military blunders aided the Russians inordinately.

02-07-2003, 05:25 AM	#30
Amen-Moses Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Portsmouth, England Posts: 4,652	Originally posted by Vorkosigan Balderdash. The Eastern Front was sewn up at Kursk in the summer of '43. By then the US had been in almost two years. Kursk was a last ditch attempt at halting the Russian advance, it failed, by Kursk the Germans had been in constant retreat for almost a year. The US did not enter the European war in any great way until 43 themselves and at that time virtually all efforts were towards the planned southern front. The Russians were entirely dependent on the US to keep their war effort up. As we have discussed. No, as asserted. The main problem I have with those assertions is that, as you have agreed, the Russians had their front sewn up by mid 43. Now please enlighten me as to how the US supplied all those arms and food to Russia? From my studies only one possible route for supplies remained open, the artic route. This route was seasonal and due to U'boats and Condor patrols was extremely risky (in fact next to the U-boat crews themselve the artic convoy crews had the lowest life expectancy of the war. Only a dribble ever got through that route so maybe there was another route that history seems to have forgotten about? Maybe it was humped over the Himalayas by Yeti's? Quite true. With the exception of a couple of panzer units, the west front was fought without serious effects on the Eastern Front. But let's not forget that the strategic bombing campaign tied up thousands of Luftwaffe and Army anti-air units that could have been used to good effect on the eastern front, and German economc, political and military blunders aided the Russians inordinately. The strategic bombing campaign that the US didn't even enter until 1943? I thought the Eastern front was sewn up by then? Amen-Moses

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