Mageth

Not according to the Logic Faq in our library.

Biff the unclean

I stand corrected

One Way

Dear Mageth

So, I assume you believe that we have evolved over billions of years. I assume you believe that by random "chance" we all happened to evolve into the amazingly complex lifeforms we see today. Oh yes, that seems extremely logical. When I look around, the whole of earth screams out nothing but "intelligent designer." Check out answersingenesis.com for more on this.

An also, since we are created by God, it follows suit that we should follow what He says dosen't it? It seems foolish to do otherwise!

You make God out to be some frustrated demigod who has a temper tantrum if He can't get His way. The reason that you or anyone is considered an "atheist" is because you don't want to be accountalbe, you want to live your own life. With no standards. I can't think of anything more hopeless or pointless then that!

ImGod

I like to refer to this as Argumentum ad bullshitum.

emotional

That's not a belief, that's what natural fact says.



Chance + Non-Random Natural Selection.



Answers in Genesis is nothing but a great big scam. They lie through the teeth to "disprove" the fact of evolution.



OK, but exactly does He say?

Speaking of accountability: Christianity is the opposite of accountability. You get to throw all your undoings upon the blood of Jesus instead of being responsible for taking care of them.

I repeat: the mass murderer goes to eternal heaven if he accepted Jesus on his deathbed, and the feeder of the hungry goes to eternal hell if he didn't. Is the moral defect in your religion clear enough for you yet? I believe in objective moral values: torturing a person for eternity is wrong, evil and immoral no matter who does this. No matter even if God does this. Read this if you haven't already:

http://www.losingmyreligion.com/articlesf/hell.html

One Way, it is my sincere hope that it will dawn upon you that you are actually worshipping the Devil, and that you will repent of such worship. The All-Loving, All-Holy Father does not torture people in eternity. Hell exists, but one gets out of it as soon as one repents.

Theophage

I understand this may be off topic for this forum (as well as for this thread) but here goes:

So, I assume you believe that we have evolved over billions of years.

Be "we" do you mean humans? Then the answer would be no; humans haven't been evolving for billions of years. If by "we" you mean all life on earth (including humans), then yes, I certainly believe that, and it is probably a good bet that Mageth does as well. "Why?" you may ask? Because that is what the evidence of the natural world says happened. If you'd like to see some of that evidence, crack open a book on evolutionary biology. As a side note, A large number of christians (I'd even say a majority) see no conflict between evolution and their religious beliefs. I assume you do?

I assume you believe that by random "chance" we all happened to evolve into the amazingly complex lifeforms we see today.

If you assume this, then it means that you don't understand evolution at all. Would it be reckless and irrational of me to reject an idea when I don't even know what the idea is about? Then I would put it to you that your (apparent) rejection of evolutionary biology is equally reckless and irrational given that you have no idea what evolutionary biology is about.

(Here's a hint: Darwin's ground-breaking book was all about how evolution is specifically non-random...)

Oh yes, that seems extremely logical.

Yes, it does; at least to those who understand what it's about. Many ideas seem illogical to those who don't have any idea what they're about. There's an easy cure for that, however...

When I look around, the whole of earth screams out nothing but "intelligent designer."

Which is absolutely fine. My question is, have you looked at the evidence for the contrary? I suspect not. Would you agree that it is easy for a person to maintain confidence in their beliefs if all they do is consider the evidence that agrees with them and ignore the evidence that disagrees?

Check out answersingenesis.com for more on this.

I certainly have. I have also watched the entire series of tapes by Kent Hovind and even attended one of his seminars. I have also read a great many other creationist websites. "Why", you may ask? Because I believe that in order to truly have confidence that what you believe is correct, you need to consider the opposing arguments as well. You need to look at all the evidence that (supposedly) contradicts what you already believe. Truth can stand up to even the mightiest criticism, lies cannot.

An also, since we are created by God, it follows suit that we should follow what He says dosen't it? It seems foolish to do otherwise!

No, actually that doesn't logically follow. You were "created" in a more immediate sense by your mother and father, were you not? So if your mother says you should become a dentist, you should become one? It may be a good idea to follow the advice of your "creator", but it does not logically follow that you should.

To take a more extreme example, suppose you were created by a malevolent being for the sole purpose of entertainment created by your suffering. Such a being would encourage you to suffer more, woudl it not? Would it not also be in your best interest (i.e. reduce your suffering) to go against such a beings wishes? This could not be true if what you wrote above is true.

You make God out to be some frustrated demigod who has a temper tantrum if He can't get His way.

Actually, the Bible itself makes both YHVH and Jesus out this way. I'm sure you've seen the examples. In fact, a rather obvious example of just this sort of thing is in the New Testament (can't be bothered for chapter and verse now) story of Jesus cursing the fig tree. I'm sure this story has a deeper, more symbolic meaning to it, but on its surface it portrays Jesus perfectly as a "frustrated demigod who has a temper tantrum if He can't get His way"

The reason that you or anyone is considered an "atheist" is because you don't want to be accountalbe,

That's silly. If I want to disobey someone, is it common to disbelieve that they exist? Did the American revolutionaries disbelieve in King George's existance because they didn't want to live under his rules? Where do you get these silly notions?

you want to live your own life.

Should I take it that you don't? Why did your God bother giving you an individual life if he doesn't want you to live it? Do you even realize the absurdidty of what you're saying here?

With no standards.

Sorry, but I'm a "strong" atheist, with strong moral standards. I guess I don't fit your strawman mold. I would hazard that most atheists don't either.

I can't think of anything more hopeless or pointless then that!

Neither could I, if the assertions you made above were true. Fortunately, they aren't. Of course, I cannot speak on Mageth's behalf, but I suspect that his response would be quite similar to mine.

Daniel "Theophage" Clark

One Way

One Way

Dear Emotional

Yes, In fact evolution is a belief. You were not there when earth was formed, you are assuming that Big Bang is the only way. Consider the following quote:

"Big bang cosmology is probably as widely believed as has been any theory of the universe in the history of
Western civilization. It rests, however, on many untested, and in some cases untestable, assumptions.
Indeed, big bang cosmology has become a bandwagon of thought that reflects faith as much as objective truth.'Burbidge, G., 1992. Why only one big bang? Scientific American, 266

Evolution, and the Big Bang in fact is just a theory (catch that). It can only ever be that.

As for answersingenesis being a scam? I suggest you actually read it through first instead of making vague assumptions on it. If you can show where the 'scam is' I would be glad to see it.

Also, I don't know what king of God that ou serve, but it's certainly not one that makes any sense at all. If God is 'all holy' that why in the world would He ever accept the feeble, futile efforts of corrupt humans? You are lowering God's standards. God expects perfect obediance. Nothing less then this will do, if it does, God ceases to be holy.

Yes your right, it is impossible, I've tried, it cannot work. Nothing less then perfection will do, nothing less! That is why Jesus had to come, so that we can now stand before the Father clothed His righteousness!

As for your website. This is no one more then a frustrated man who no longer believes in Hell. You have not proved anything excpet that you believe man;s opinions over God's.

I am extremely glad you included the last line. Yes if you repent you will be saved. Amen!

And if you honestly think that you will stand before the throne of God and say "well I helped poor people, I helped an old lady across the street" an expect that God will say, oh, good try, come on in. I can only pray for you. Again I woudl say, that you have no real basis for why you believe that God is who you says He is. Remember, Hell is not torture, it is just, God has given a way now.

ImGod

Let he without sin cast the first stone.

Wait, it think I forgot something about a house in there.

Worldtraveller

Well, like most topics of this sort, we are wandering all over the spectrum here, so I'll do the same.

ElCId, your questions are exactly the same questions I had when I was considering Christianity as a belief system. It seemed to me extremely unfair that a mass murderer could 'get to heaven' by converting to xianity on his/her deathbed. (and don't even get me started on all the ones who kill in the name of god...) While I, who I feel live as good or better a life from a morally objective view point, would be condemned to burn (or whatever appropriate torture the 'loving' xian god deemed necessary) in hell forever! Not just for, say an equal amount of time as I lived or something remotely fair....maybe just make hell a little warm since I didn't do anything REALLY bad...?? It just doesn't make sense. And it really just gets preposterous after that....

I have a good friend, who is a devout christian, who was much nicer and less threatening than our friend Ben here who spent literally years of his life tryng to convince me that he felt bad that I was going to go to hell just because I didn't believe in the same loving god that he did....and he never once saw the irony in that statement.

Then I really wanted to learn about xianity, so I started reading the bible. And you know what I discovered, the god of the old testament had the manners and disposition of your average spoiled six year old brat!!

Read the Book of Job. The basic idea here is that God makes a bet !?!?! with SATAN to show that he can't convince this man to give up on God. I think the only thing I got out of that entire chapter was that god didn't deserve to be worshipped by a man as loyal as Job.

I spent several years of my juvenile life attending xian churches of just about every denomination, and it's real hard to believe that the Bible is infallible when they all claim to have it 'right' and the others are misreading it.

They are still convinced that it is a monotheistic religon (with a trinity). But that just may be an arithmetic mistake...

Later, as I drifted more and more towards a hard atheistic viewpoint, I dabbled in some eastern religions/philosophies, as well as several pagan beliefs.

When it comes down to it though, I can not in any way convince myself that there is an intelligent/sentient anything (invisible, pink or otherwise) responsible for the universe as we know it.

I think there may be something 'like' a soul, not unique to humans, or even to living creatures necessarily but it will be eventually explained by natural means (grand unified field theory may be the first step)

Of course the xians/fundamentalists will continue to preach (threaten) you, but organized religion is not about spirituality, it's all about power and control. I have met many xians, jews, muslims, buddhists, and athiests who I would consider very spiritual people, but not very religious.

They have all seen through the sham that is organized religion and moved on with thier lives.

That's not to say that the various religious movements haven't done any good, but like every other human endeavor, there have been atrocities and abuses as well. More people have died in the name of god (pick one) than for any other reason we have ever managed to invent.

That may have been a little more than $.02 worth, but I hope it helps.

Lane