Yellum Notnef

You're the one who keeps telling people to take a Zen class,not me.

It would not be an exaggeration to say you've suggested Zen classes to people here at least one dozen times. Probably even two dozen times.

You've never once offered any explanation for this and I find it amusing that in order to understand your religion,you suggest we look for help outside of it.

So acccording to you Jesus can help us calibrate telescopes,design aluminum bike frames and guide the founding fathers,but he can't help anyone make sense out of Christianity unless they take a Zen course.

Will you now suggest that Jesus invented Zen Buddhism as a way of understanding him and the religion that was built around him?

P.S.
Why isn't anything about Zen Buddhism included with the New Testament?
Perhaps there should be a detachable coupon for free Zen classes stuck somewhere between the pages of Mathew.

seebs

Amusingly, one of the crackpot theories I've heard about the "missing years" in the life of Jesus involves a Zen monk named something like "Joshu" who came from the west, acquired enlightenment very quickly, and then disappeared at a comparatively young age.

I have to admit, some of the Joshu koans I've heard have a familiar ring to them.

Me, I recommend people study Zen because the rigorous mental training of koans may be useful in many fields. I don't see it as a religion, really - it can be, but it often isn't.

The Frood Dude

Neither -- why just the two choices? context?

Opera Nut

Yeah, I'm talking about direct quotes from the NT, since you are probably an infallibility/literally true kind of guy, even though there are gazillions of contradictions in both parts of the bible.

ex-xian

The appeal to religious experience is an unconvincing one. There are many, many religions in which the adherents claim that subjective, individual experiences are the "proof" that their religion is valid. Someone below cited the change in behavior of her daughter as evidence of the truths of xianity. With all due respect, and with happiness for her daughter's improvement, this isn't good evidence. Mormon's regularly have dramatic testimonials--most orthodox xians would not call mormons orthodox. Secondly, Malcolm X, a commmited pro-violence advocate, underwent a mysticl experience on his pilgrimage to mecca. Upon his return, his views moderated, and he was fast approaching the stance of Martin Luther King. If not for his assisination, they probably become allies in principle and practive.

For the "open" christian who sees all religions a valid and ways to god, the question arises, "Why anything?" If all religions are equally valid, is no religion? I know moral, ethical, content atheist; theives life are full and they are happy. If pragmatism is the test of xianity, then whatever is the post pleasing is what to believe. This sounds all nice and tolerant, but the xian has to interpret the bible in some pretty odd ways. Most of the OT and the writings of paul are gone. All that stuff about jesus being the savior of the world can't be right either. One is still left with the contradictions inherent in believing in an omni-god.

The orthodox xians and the liberal ones are all in the same boat. One believing in spite of reason, one using the techniqes of reason "explain away" the problems of what they desperately want to be true.

The Frood Dude

I see you've decided to tell us liberal Christians how we are rather than have conversation and discussion with us.

Opera Nut, if your comment was to me, I can't tell, then I do not believe in the literal/fundy approach.

I accepts Mormons, btw. And Atheists. And JW's. I am going to hell according to my fundy friends, but I don't believe in hell. Some make it work, others don't. Some have not made lack of belief work very well.

As far as morality, please don't go to the Bible for it! If you do, you will get really screwed up. The Bible is horrid for morality if taken literally.

I do have to interpret the Bible oddly. I have to use my understanding of literary forms, languages, culture of the time, and historical development in order to read the text well. When I do this, I find the text has many contradictions, as many people experienced God in different ways. And many of them were flat wrong.

But you don't care. You have me in a box already. It seems anyone who claims to be Christian is something less in your eyes. Typical in-group/out-group stereotyping. Who hurt you? There seems to be a lot of passion in your words.

seebs

It's funny - atheists complain about being told by Christians what they think, but then turn around and do it.

ex-xian

Even if this were true, it's merely a tu quoque, and invalid. Since it isn't true I assume that the comments were meant for rhetorical purposes only.

If I am mistaken in my analysis, please point them out, don't just tell me I'm wrong.
As I said above, tell me where and how I'm wrong. I don't see xians as having any less intrinsic value than any other person; also, it's funny how someone assumes that you have a deep hurt if you dislike religion. Of course I've been hurt by xians. I've also been hurt by gays, blacks, white, men, women, etc. That has nothing to do with anything.

I understand hermaneutics--I've been to bible college, so I had to sit thru a whole semester on it. But how exactly do you decide which experiences are valid. Do you have a preconceived idea of god and jesus and what he can or cannot do. If that is so, then you are imposing your ideas on the bible rather than letting the bible guide you. In what sense are you a xian if this is true. Of course I'm not assuming it is, nor am I trying to tell anyone how to think. I merely making extropolations based on your previous comments. If there wrong, then tell me how.

edited to correct grammar

Opera Nut

If you're any kind of a Xtian that believes any or all of the stuff in the NT, then you are wrong according to the people who hold that there are five things the Messiah will do when he comes. They are all in the Old Testament and Jesus did none of them.

For example, the messiah will unify Israel and be named Immanuel and be The Prince of Peace. Jesus said "I come not in peace but with a sword."
===

Christians have hurt and insulted and invalidated and dissed me many, many times. Almost as many times as lawyers and judges have. I fled the church in horror and despair.

Opera Nut

Frood, I posted this stuff in the thread "A challenge to the Christians" under GRD. This explains why I avoid Christians whenever possible:

"What some people would call ESP I would call "gut feelings". Once I was attempting to type some holy roller sermons by some black half-assed preacher. I had never met him, didn't know him at all, he was in some other city. But when I was listening to these tapes, and attempted to type them, i got the worst feeling of total dread in my stomach I have ever felt about anybody, by far. I am convinced, even though I never met this guy, that he was evil. Gut feelings are always right, and I believe I was led away from this man.

"I gave up typing and gave the tapes back to the woman preacher who gave them to me to type up, because I felt so bad. Then some other woman called me and told me I had no right to charge for my typing skills. That did it. That was the call that sent me over the edge. I tried to slash my wrists and checked myself into the county funny farm. That was two weeks of a complete waste of time."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Opera Nut
Veteran User

Registered: March 2002
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 779

"Frood, the depression and suicidal ideation were the end stage of a long period of depression and decline which happened after I joined a church and got baptised. I have posted in other threads, my experiences of feeling horrible in church, crying during sermons about how we are all worthless pieces of shit that sin and can never be redeemed, and the constant message that "you're not good enough and you never will be."

"I can't stand to be around Christians, because their death-loving ways disguised as life-affirming waves make me suicidal. I am not saying that I am morally better than other people. I am just saying that I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ORIGINAL SIN. I do not believe that a couple of fruit munching simpletons have anything at all to do with me as a person living now. In the legal system there is a presumption of innocense. God is not just if you are presumed to be a bad person just because you're breathing and walking around. I worked in the legal system for many years and you don't hit somebody with a rap just for existing."



April 19, 2003 06:59 PM