Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Krieger · 07-19-2003, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dcwolf

Seems pretty sound to me. So there you go, krieger. The Colby article has been refuted. What do you think?

Hardly, you post links to Dean speeches and to Dean campaign websites. And then you show me some weak "environmental", "reform" bill that anyone could have supported to give them a better image. That sounds like the bones that Republican politicians toss to religious-right voters.

Furthermore, throughout this entire thread the ONLY issue you have wanted to discuss is the environment. Apparently because Dean said he was going to stop driving his SUV, heh. The CounterPunch article goes on well to record how Dean let the Wal Marts and other chain stores push out local business and take control of the state during his reign as governor. We both know that Howard Dean is a pitiful far right capitalist politician, just like Albert Gore Junior was. Funny, old Al allegedly cared about the environment too. But as Dave and I have stated repeatedly throughout this thread, this is NOT just about the environment (which is only one of many issues).

Quote:

Originally posted by dcwolf

You mean you post half-truths and distortions? Btw, you know as well as anyone that Lieberman is slipping in the polls, and his campaign is in serious jeopardy. Who here has said they would vote for Lieberman anyway?

Nope, in fact in a recent Time/CNN poll Joseph Lieberman is back up to 16% and leading the pack of Democratic presidential candidates. Dean, on the other hand, has slipped to 10% (from his 12% high in a previous Newsweek poll).

Daggah · 07-19-2003, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Because Gore scared them into voting for him - remember, "we gotta stop Bush"?

You should've listened.

dcwolf · 07-19-2003, 10:21 PM

Quote:

posted by krieger Furthermore, throughout this entire thread the ONLY issue you have wanted to discuss is the environment.

Krieger, go back and check my posts towards the end of page 3 of this thread.

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posted by krieger Apparently because Dean said he was going to stop driving his SUV, heh.

Convenient for you to leave out the part about Vermont being one of four states to have an electric auto requirement, isn't it? And do you think Detroit auto makers are pleased to hear him push for all SUVs to achieve 35mpg?? This policy of his shows that he definitely does not pander to big business.

Quote:

posted by krieger The CounterPunch article goes on well to record how Dean let the Wal Marts and other chain stores push out local business and take control of the state during his reign as governor.

Yeah, it was shameful to not stop what has happened in every other state in the country. He didn't let them set up outside of malls and downtown. If you had bothered to read the interview I posted twice in this thread, you would know that. Walmart definitely did not "take control" of the state.

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posted by krieger Funny, old Al allegedly cared about the environment too.

Did he? He didn't say much about it. He was pro-environment, but he never mentioned specifics. Dean, on the other hand, has expressed his policy on many specifics regarding the environment, as I've shown you.

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posted by krieger Hardly, you post links to Dean speeches and to Dean campaign websites

Again, krieger, go back and read my posts, and show me these links that are from Dean "campaign websites." For instance, you think http://greenyes.grrn.org is a Dean campaign site?? Earlier, your complaint was that the speeches were "campaign speeches." If you keep backpeddaling you will arrive at the truth.

Gore lost Green votes in 2000 because he didn't deal with the issues that Nader brought up in the campaign. Dean has shown that he listens to people's concerns, that he does not pander to big business, and that he has specific plans to upgrade environmental regulation and innovation. I guess you're just not willing to listen.

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posted by krieger Nope, in fact in a recent Time/CNN poll Joseph Lieberman is back up to 16% and leading the pack of Democratic presidential candidates. Dean, on the other hand, has slipped to 10% (from his 12% high in a previous Newsweek poll).

Wow, one poll out of several major polls has Lieberman gaining. You're right about the time/cnn poll, but somehow you're way off on the Newsweek poll.

Quote:

from http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04dem.htm
Newsweek Poll conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates. July 10-11, 2003. N=376 registered Democrats and independents who lean Democratic nationwide. MoE � 6.
"Now I'm going to name nine Democrats who might run for president in the next election. After I read all their names, tell me which ONE you would MOST like to see nominated as the Democratic Party's presidential candidate in 2004. Here are the choices . . . ." Names rotated

7/03 1/03
% %
Dick Gephardt 14 13
Joe Lieberman 13 22
Howard Dean 12 4

The number on the left is the July number, and the number on the right is the January one.

Here's ABC's poll results

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"If the 2004 Democratic presidential primary in your state were being held today, and the candidates were [see below], for whom would you vote?" Names rotated

7/03 4/03 .
% % .
Joseph Lieberman 13 29
John Kerry 12 14
Richard Gephardt 10 19
Howard Dean 8 3

Looks like Lieberman might actually be slipping, doesn't it?

Krieger · 07-19-2003, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by marylandnaturegirl
I haven't read all the replies on this thread.

I sure as heck hope that SOMEONE called you on this ridiculous statement about Al Gore having right wing views on most issues?

Are you freakin' kidding me?

Lets see
Pro-Choice LEFT
Pro Gun Control LEFT
Pro Pro PRo PRO Environment LEFT
Anti-Tobacco LEFT
Pro Unions/Labor LEFT
Pro Civil Rights LEFT
Anti-HMO LEFT
Against Pharmaceutical companies jacking up prices LEFT
Against Vouchers and for supporting Public Schools LEFT
Stuck up for Atheists to the Media during the campaign LEFT!
I could go on with more examples but I think you get the point.

No personality? Well you obviously never met the guy, he was very warm and charming. It was the late night talk show hosts that first came up with the Stiff thing because they couldn't find any other flaws in him like they had with Quayle and BUsh Sr. when they were VP's. (Its a favorite past time to make fun of the VP's. with Cheney they freakin pick on him for his heart problems)

Gore happens to have very broad shoulders and broad chest so of course he is going to look rigid stuffing that kind of physique in to a suit. The stiff thing just stuck from the talk show hosts but if you ever met him or saw him interact with people he was anything but stiff and in fact is more outgoing and personable/down to earth than Bill Clinton is. I agree that this may not have translated on camera. Who cares about all that anyway. He sure as heck coulda cleaned Bush's clock and pretty nearly seemed like he was going to during one of the debates. LOL. Bush was like a scared rabbit.

Don't forget that Gore received more votes than any Democrat has EVEr and Gore did not have Ross Perot to siphon off Conservative votes as did CLinton in both his elections.

Anyhow, if you truly think that Gore was a right winger then you were truly brainwashed by someone. Not sure if it was by Nader or by the Republicans.

Gore was way more left than Clinton. That is why they were at odds at times because Gore was wanting to more left leaning things and Clinton kept bringing everything back to the center.
Gore was much more disciplined in a million ways and Gore was in politics for the right reasons, to help the "little guys" no matter what hog wash you may think.

Check his whole career and his whole history. There was a reason that the Elder Bush called him Ozone Man.

While were on the topic of defending Gore can I just say that
Al Gore NEVER said that he INVENTED the internet.
You can find out the story behind that B.S. on that urban legend debunker site.

I am not ANTI-Nader although I am not a fan of his. I think the left needs to band together, not fracture in to little special interest parties like The Atheist Party, The Greens, The Pro Choice Party, The Anti-Gun party etc. That just won't win any elections.

We can't be idealouges and only vote for a candidate that we agree with 100% because that is just a cop out.
That gives people an excuse to vote for someone they know doesn't have a chance in heck of winning because when problems arise in the world they can then say "Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him/her"

The Left is anti-capitalist (social democrat, "democratic socialist", communist, anarchist, etc). The Democratic Party is capitalist and a ruling class political entity. Voting for the Democrats is just voting for capitalism and the voting for the American Empire. It will never get my vote!

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Originally posted by marylandnaturegirl
Take a chance, back a candidate that actually will WIN.

I will support a social democratic candidate (such as whoever the Green Party runs), but I will not support some lame capitalist Democrat.

Quote:

Originally posted by marylandnaturegirl
Lets take our country BACK!

It was never our country in the first place!

Krieger · 07-19-2003, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dcwolf
Krieger, go back and check my posts towards the end of page 3 of this thread. Pardon the expression, but you're talking out of your ass.

I'm sorry that I missed your post about industrial hemp, ROFL! And yes, I am aware that Howard Dean has views on education, the military, etc. I just think those views are weak and center-right at best. Nothing deserving of my vote.

Quote:

Originally posted by dcwolf
Convenient for you to leave out the part about Vermont being one of four states to have an electric auto requirement, isn't it? And do you think Detroit auto makers are pleased to hear him push for all SUVs to achieve 35mpg?? This policy of his shows that he definitely does not pander to big business.

As I previously stated, I am not impressed.

Quote:

Originally posted by dcwolf
Yeah, it was shameful to not stop what has happened in every other state in the country. He didn't let them set up outside of malls and downtown. If you had bothered to read the interview I posted twice in this thread, you would know that. Walmart definitely did not "take control" of the state.

And just like every other governor in the country, he did not put up a fight either, and not that I particularly care about this battle between the petty bourgeoisie and the bourgeoisie itself. But this is a good illustration about how Howard Dean is no different than any other politician in this country. He is nothing to be excited about.

Quote:

Originally posted by dcwolf
Did he? He didn't say much about it. He was pro-environment, but he never mentioned specifics. Dean, on the other hand, has expressed his policy on many specifics regarding the environment, as I've shown you.

What?! Al Gore wrote a whole freaking book about the environment! I think it was called "Earth in the Balance"...

Quote:

Originally posted by dcwolf
Looks like Lieberman might actually be slipping, doesn't it?

Nope, Lieberman went up from 13% to 16% in Time/CNN. And then Howard Dean went down from 12% in Newsweek to 10% in Time/CNN. Assuming that both media sources use decent polling methods (and I don't see why they would lie about a trivial issue like the Democratic Party primary race) then I should be able to compare the numbers from the two different polls.

RED DAVE · 07-19-2003, 11:19 PM

Dean's Health Program

Quote:

In the richest, most advanced country in the world in the 21st century, it's simply wrong for sick children to go without seeing a doctor because their parents can't afford it. It's wrong for a woman to find out she has late-stage breast cancer, because she couldn't afford a mammogram. It's wrong for seniors to have to choose between prescriptions they need and putting food on the table. The time has come to make healthcare for all Americans a reality.

It doesn't have to be this way in America. In Vermont, where I served as governor for the last 11 years, nearly 92% of adults now have coverage. Most importantly, 99% of all Vermont children are eligible for health insurance and 96% have it.

But that's not it. We coupled our success in insuring kids with a new early childhood initiative that we call "Success by Six." As a result, nine out of 10 parents with a newborn baby -- regardless of income -- get a home visit from a community outreach worker who's there to help them with parenting skills and to put those parents in touch with the services they may need or want. Thanks to Success by Six, we've cut our state's child abuse rate nearly in half, and child sexual abuse of kids under 6 is down by 70%.

If Vermont -- a small, rural state that ranks 26th in income in the United States -- can achieve this, surely the country that ranks No. 1 in the history of the world can do so as well.

A just-released Congressional Budget Office study shows that nearly 60 million Americans lack health insurance at some point during the year. The number of uninsured is soaring at the rate of nearly 1 million people every year. More than 40% of uninsured adults postponed seeking medical care last year alone. At a time when insurance costs paid by working families are increasing exponentially, and 1,300 babies are born in this country without health insurance every day, there is no excuse for President Bush's plan to slash funding for Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program by $2.5 billion.

For a year now, I have been traveling this country advocating a repeal of Bush's tax cuts so that we can provide universal healthcare and restore fiscal discipline. Many have questioned the political wisdom of challenging the president on politically popular tax cuts.

I believe, however, that given a choice between having health insurance or keeping all of the Bush's tax cuts in place, most Americans will choose health insurance. My plan will cost $88.3 billion -- less than half of the president's tax cut -- with money left over to pay down the deficits run up by this administration.

My plan consists of four major components.

First, and most important, in order to extend health coverage to every uninsured child and young adult up to age 25, we'll redefine and expand two essential federal and state programs -- Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. Right now, they only offer coverage to children from lower-income families. Under my plan, we cover all kids and young adults up to age 25 -- middle income as well as lower income. This aspect of my plan will give 11.5 million more kids and young adults access to the healthcare they need.

Second, we'll give a leg up to working families struggling to afford health insurance. Adults earning up to 185% of the poverty level -- $16,613 -- will be eligible for coverage through the already existing Children Health Insurance Program. By doing this, an additional 11.8 million people will have access to the care they need.

Many working families have incomes that put them beyond the help offered by government programs. But this doesn't mean they have viable options for healthcare. We'll establish an affordable health insurance plan people can buy into, providing coverage nearly identical to what members of Congress and federal employees receive.

To cushion the costs, we'll also offer a significant tax credit to those with high premium costs. By offering this help, another 5.5 million adults will have access to care.

Third, we need to recognize that one key to a healthy America is making healthcare affordable to small businesses.We shouldn't turn our back on the employer-based system we have now, but neither should we simply throw money at it. We need to modernize the system so employers will have an option beyond passing rising costs on to workers or bailing out of the system entirely. Fortunately, we have a model of efficient, affordable and user-friendly healthcare coverage: the federal employee health system.

With the plan I've put forth to the American people, we'll organize a system nearly identical to the one federal workers and members of Congress enjoy. And we'll enable all employers with less than 50 workers to join it at rates lower than are currently available to these companies -- provided they insure their work force. I'll also offer employers a deal: The federal government will pick up 70% of COBRA premiums for employees transitioning out of their jobs, but we'll expect employers to pay the cost of extending coverage for an additional two months. These two months are often the difference between workers finding the health coverage they need, or joining the ranks of the uninsured.

Finally, to ensure that the maximum number of American men, women and children have access to healthcare, we must address corporate responsibility. There are many corporations that could provide healthcare to their employees but choose not to. The final element of this plan is a clear, strong message to corporate America that providing health coverage is fundamental to being a good corporate citizen. I look at business tax deductions as part of a compact between American taxpayers and corporate America. We give businesses certain benefits, and expect them to live up to certain responsibilities.

I believe this plan is sensible and that it can pass Congress -- but most importantly, I believe that it is the right thing to do. When my wife, Judith Steinberg, and I graduated from medical school, we took an oath in which we pledged to practice our profession with conscience and dignity and to always make the health of our patients our first consideration. With this plan, and in my campaign for the presidency, I will make the health of all Americans my first priority. Our country has waited too long, and we must do better.

I'm quoting Dean's healthcare plan to be fair to him and his supporters.

This plan is, in reality, a piece-meal plan that fails to address the heart of the matter: we need universal health care not a few reforms!

Here are Dean's 4 major points, edited:

1. ... extend health coverage to every uninsured child and young adult up to age 25 ... cover all kids and young adults up to age 25 -- middle income as well as lower income. This aspect of my plan will give 11.5 million more kids and young adults access to the healthcare they need.

2. Adults earning up to 185% of the poverty level -- $16,613 -- will be eligible for coverage through the already existing Children Health Insurance Program. By doing this, an additional 11.8 million people will have access to the care they need.

Many working families have incomes that put them beyond the help offered by government programs. But this doesn't mean they have viable options for healthcare. We'll establish an affordable health insurance plan people can buy into, providing coverage nearly identical to what members of Congress and federal employees receive.

To cushion the costs, we'll also offer a significant tax credit to those with high premium costs. By offering this help, another 5.5 million adults will have access to care.

3. ... a system nearly identical to the one federal workers and members of Congress enjoy. And we'll enable all employers with less than 50 workers to join it at rates lower than are currently available to these companies -- provided they insure their work force. I'll also offer employers a deal: The federal government will pick up 70% of COBRA premiums for employees transitioning out of their jobs, but we'll expect employers to pay the cost of extending coverage for an additional two months. These two months are often the difference between workers finding the health coverage they need, or joining the ranks of the uninsured.

4. to ensure that the maximum number of American men, women and children have access to healthcare, we must address corporate responsibility. There are many corporations that could provide healthcare to their employees but choose not to. The final element of this plan is a clear, strong message to corporate America that providing health coverage is fundamental to being a good corporate citizen. I look at business tax deductions as part of a compact between American taxpayers and corporate America. We give businesses certain benefits, and expect them to live up to certain responsibilities.

1. I must say that I find the "innocence" of the rhetoric disgusting. We are the only major industrial country without universal healthcare, and, as a result, millions of children and adults have no medical care or inadequate care. This lack is a result of conservative hatred of the poor and working people, corporategreed, greed by the physicians themselves. I don't even count in the whacky ideas of libertarians.

2. There is no discussion in this program of quality or addressing the class, racial and geographical differences in quality and quantity of care being delivered or how it came to this.

3. Point 1 is minimally adequate and nothing more. There is no discussion of preventive medicine, abortion, drugs.

4. Point 2 is a joke. I myself, making over 30K, have no coverage and would get none under this plan.

5. Point 3 is also a joke. Let's give those corps one more incentive to do what they won't do. And if they still won't do it? What then?

6. Point 4 is nauseating. Let's kiss the capitalists' asses and remind them of their responsibility. They are already fulfiling their responsibility. They're capitalists, as our libertarian brethren point out, and they're acting like good capitalists.

7. So, this is what Dean has to offer. A bit of improvement, yes. AND A COMPLETE ACCEPTANCE OF THE EXISTING SYSTEM, WHICH JUST NEEDS TO BE TINKERED WITH A LITTLE. It also fails to addess the complicty of Dean's own party.

Comrades, when the pipes are rusted out, it's time for a complete, new plumbing job.

RED DAVE

Dean on Health

Daggah · 07-20-2003, 06:32 AM

Krieger, I corrected a statement:

"The EXTREME Left is anti-capitalist (social democrat, "democratic socialist", communist, anarchist, etc)."

Quote:

It was never our country in the first place!

Sure it is. It's just not YOUR country, because you're an extremist.

Krieger · 07-20-2003, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daggah
Krieger, I corrected a statement:

"The EXTREME Left is anti-capitalist (social democrat, "democratic socialist", communist, anarchist, etc)."

Sure it is. It's just not YOUR country, because you're an extremist.

Nope, the real Left is anti-capitalist, it always has been.

It is just that here in the United States there are lots of boring GOP radio show hosts that refer to the Democratic Party as being "left-wing", as an attack of course.

Daggah · 07-20-2003, 02:27 PM

Liberalism does not equate to communism, Krieger. Communism is and always has been an extremist viewpoint. I agree that American democrats aren't really all that liberal, but they're a helluva lot better than the unavoidable alternative.

Like I said before...when Gore scared green voters with the "we must stop Bush" line, you should've listened. Bush is the worst thing to happen to America in a very long time, and a lot of the blame lies on extremists like you for it.

Krieger · 07-20-2003, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daggah
Liberalism does not equate to communism, Krieger. Communism is and always has been an extremist viewpoint. I agree that American democrats aren't really all that liberal, but they're a helluva lot better than the unavoidable alternative.

Like I said before...when Gore scared green voters with the "we must stop Bush" line, you should've listened. Bush is the worst thing to happen to America in a very long time, and a lot of the blame lies on extremists like you for it.

Liberals are capitalists, what is your point? Liberals aren't "left-wing" though.

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07-20-2003, 02:27 PM	#89
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	Liberalism does not equate to communism, Krieger. Communism is and always has been an extremist viewpoint. I agree that American democrats aren't really all that liberal, but they're a helluva lot better than the unavoidable alternative. Like I said before...when Gore scared green voters with the "we must stop Bush" line, you should've listened. Bush is the worst thing to happen to America in a very long time, and a lot of the blame lies on extremists like you for it.

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