Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ex-xian · 08-04-2003, 02:39 PM

...'cause it's a twofer.

Quote:

Jer.22:28-30
"Thus saith the Lord, write this man [Jeconiah] childless .... No man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."

So here god is telling Jeremiah that Jeconiah will be childless, further saying that none of his seed will sit on the throne of David....But,

Quote:

1 Chr 3.17-18:
"And the sons of Jeconiah; Assir, Salatheil his son, Malchiram also, and Pedaiah, and Shenazar, Jecamiah, Hoshama, and Nedabiah.."

Oops! Looks like somebody messed up. Wait, it gets better,

Quote:

Mt.1:12
"Jeconiah begat Shealtiel."

Looks like not only did Jeconiah have some kiddies, but Jesus is one of his seed! In case you didn't know, Jesus is supposed to sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem.

winstonjen · 08-04-2003, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Think this is the 8th time iv'e explained this verse. Jesus was speaking about the generation that sees the end times He just described. When read in context, it makes sense. The Bible is addressed to future generations. Why would the Apostles need the Bible, when they can hear from Jesus first hand? They were dictating Jesus' words, so future generations would know what He said and look out for the warnings.

I'm so sick of this verse coming up its not even funny. Get over it already - it is NOT a contradiction. :banghead:

Think this is the 8th time Iv'e seen this apologetic. Jesus was speaking about the generation that sees the end times, and he was referring to the people in front of him. How else are you meant to interpret it? He just described. When read in context (Whose context?), it makes sense. The Bible is not addressed to future generations. Why would the Apostles need the Bible, when they can hear from Jesus first hand? They were dictating Jesus' words, so future generations would know what He said and look out for the warnings. Zzzzzzzzzzz

I'm so sick of this verse coming up its not even funny. Get over it already - it IS a contradiction. :banghead:

Fixed it for you in bold, Magus

Family Man · 08-04-2003, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Think this is the 8th time iv'e explained this verse.

And for the eighth time, Magus, there is nothing in the text to support your interpretation. It is a contradiction -- get over it yourself.

winstonjen · 08-04-2003, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Not a contradiction.

Yes it is. You just have your mind made up so you'll rationalise anything away.

Quote:

Salvation comes through faith, not works. But works come from being saved. Works are a sign of the Holy Spirit living within the believer. If you don't show good fruits ( works/deeds) after you claim to be saved, then obviously you didn't truly have enough faith that God could save you, therefore you were never saved in the first place. Works come as a result of salvation, not as a corequisite.

Ah, that must be why the works of the Inquisitions, Witch Burnings, etc. must have been wonderful example of Christian love! PRAISE! :boohoo:

WinAce · 08-04-2003, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Think this is the 8th time iv'e explained this verse. Jesus was speaking about the generation that sees the end times He just described. When read in context, it makes sense. The Bible is addressed to future generations.

Magus, let's imagine a hypothetical parallel universe where Jesus *did* say he'd come back within the Apostles' lifetimes. How would he go about saying so, and what are the differences between this hypothetical and his actual words?

In other words (pardon the pun), how could Jesus make it any clearer he would be coming back "while some STANDING HERE" and "THIS GENERATION" were still around?

Doctor X · 08-04-2003, 04:21 PM

Morpheus:

Welcome to the forum.

As you can see here, no matter how good the evidence some will not see it. I do not know your parents, but they may not see it either.

Stick to something simple--notice that Mt and Lk connect the birth to two different events . . . about ten years appart.

The other thing is to simply state that it is your business, period.

--J.D.

Magus55 · 08-04-2003, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ex-xian
Where the hell did you get this idea? It clearly says "some of them that stand here."

Oops, sorry - misread the verse - was thinking of Mat 24, not Mark. Mark 9:1 though isn't a contradiction, but that is referring to those who stand there. Mark 9:1 was at Jesus' transfiguration. It wasn't referring to the end days and judgement.

As an aside note, since Matt 24 about "this generation shall not pass", was bound to come up since it does in every other contradiction post - I'm just one step ahead

Secular Pinoy · 08-04-2003, 05:00 PM

Bull dung! The verse says And he said to them, "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power. That is clearly an apocalyptic prophecy (a failed prophecy). Unless you would interpret the term Kingdom of God into nonapocalyptic, just like the folks at the Jesus Seminar.

Secular Pinoy · 08-04-2003, 05:06 PM

The genea/generation problem has already been debated in the Skeptical Review. Read this article.

winstonjen · 08-04-2003, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
As an aside note, since Matt 24 about "this generation shall not pass", was bound to come up since it does in every other contradiction post - I'm just one step ahead

[Edited by mod to remove flame]

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08-04-2003, 04:21 PM	#16
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Morpheus: Welcome to the forum. As you can see here, no matter how good the evidence some will not see it. I do not know your parents, but they may not see it either. Stick to something simple--notice that Mt and Lk connect the birth to two different events . . . about ten years appart. The other thing is to simply state that it is your business, period. --J.D.

08-04-2003, 05:00 PM	#18
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	Bull dung! The verse says And he said to them, "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power. That is clearly an apocalyptic prophecy (a failed prophecy). Unless you would interpret the term Kingdom of God into nonapocalyptic, just like the folks at the Jesus Seminar.

08-04-2003, 05:06 PM	#19
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	The genea/generation problem has already been debated in the Skeptical Review. Read this article.

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