seebs

No, I have a problem with them thinking that *all* Christianity should be eliminated, which is the posture you took. Well, to be fair, I have a problem with any attempt to "eliminate" personal beliefs; sounds like fascism to me.

As to the rest... You've been posting the exact same stuff since long before you'd ever heard of me. I do not believe that you are "testing" me. The lurkers may be forming opinions; they have the right to do so. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them, watching me overall, concluded that I was a bit more tolerant than you think.

Huh? I don't expect people to take my beliefs seriously, agree with them, or even respect them. I expect only a little bit of consistency; I am fine with people who have contrary truth claims to mine, and admit it. I am not fine with people who dogmatically attack anyone they think believes in the "useless concept of truth" - because this itself is clearly an assertion of special knowledge of the structure of the universe.

Your belief that all "supernaturalist" beliefs are false and must be eliminated (and your straw men of what "supernaturalism" is) are precisely interchangeable with the beliefs of anyone from any other religion. That's fine - as long as you admit it. When you insist that you, alone of all the people who claims to know everyone else to be wrong, are *not* doing the same thing, then we have a problem, because you're being dishonest.

How so? You yourself agree that getting along with people you agree with proves nothing. It's not *interesting* to discuss the stuff we agree on, in this context; neither of us would learn anythingfrom it.

Well, I don't see this as addressing tolerance either way, but...

Er... You just answered this question a paragraph back. Christianity is not primarily about producing a "harmonious and peaceful world". That's not the primary goal of the religion. That said, most Christians would like to see such a world, and work towards it, and I daresay that most of them are doing more for tolerance than a guy who runs around waving straw men of people who think demons make cars don't run, and insists that, because of these straw men, religion should be utterly eliminated.

Hey, just 'cuz I personally can't stand straw men, equivocation, fallacies of generalization, and rampant hypocrisy, doesn't mean that Christianity doesn't teach tolerance; it just means I'm a jerk. Cope.

Sabine Grant

Hello Starboy... What does it tell you then about the few christians who are participants to this forum and post let us say an average of 3 or more posts per day in various topics? could they be tolerant ones? is it possible that there is a minority who seeks common grounds and believes that both atheists and theists can and should put their minds together for the betterment of mankind.? should the minority be dismissed by stereotyping comments?
I beg to differ.

Starboy

seebs, Please cut down on the straw. That supernatural religion makes me angry and that I would like to see all supernatural religion go away is a fact. That does not mean that I advocate rounding up all super naturalist and doing away with them, nor does it mean that I wish to restrict their freedoms under the constitution. I do oppose all supernatural religion that would attempt to impose its ideals and desires on others through the government. As far as I know we may even agree on that last point. You also use the term "attack". Is this yet another way in which you weave straw? If I state an opinion you don't like it appears I am "attacking". Hmmmmm, very tolerant. As for the continuity of my point of view, does that trouble you? You are not the first Christian I have called out on hypocrisy nor do I think you will be the last. As far as my stating that supernaturalism is false, again more straw from you. I never said that. I will repeat it again just for you - "in this day and age, accepting supernatural over natural explanations is irrational". I have also on several occasion pointed to evidence that is inconsistent with the supernatural existing or having any role in the affairs of humanity. Seebs, make a note of that would you please. If you are going to make claims on what I said, get it right would you.

Seebs, I am glad to see a Christian admit that making a better world IS NOT the top priority of Christianity. Why you might even agree with the statement that for many Christian sects it is not a priority at all! You bring out one of the many things about Christianity that I find loathsome and disgusting. It is an ethos that is more concerned with life after death than life before death. For all you Christians out there that are insurance policy Christians, please note, you are contributing to an ethos that essentially could give a rat’s a** about the here and now. If life sucks, well gee, get used to it, because you can't commit suicide and you will have to wait until you’re dead to get relief. For atheist that think that the here and now is all we have, we find the Christian sentiment to be downright destructive. And by the way Islam is right in there with the Christians.

If you are truly interested in discussing the things we disagree on, I would suspect you would be asking more questions and putting down less straw. What I see is a Christian squirming under intense scrutiny.

Starboy

Starboy

Hi Sabine,

It tells me that there is hope. That humanity has the capacity to make the world a better place. Now if we could just get the majority of the supernatural religions to concentrate on life before death instead of life after death, and to direct their efforts towards real tolerance and understanding instead of truth mongering, perhaps together we could make this a much better world for both naturalist and super naturalist.

You must admit that the vast majority of Christians that visit this site are not here to find a common ground. They are here for more of the same old baloney that has cursed mankind since the beginning of supernatural religion.

Starboy

beyelzu

sabrine said
What I was trying to express Debbie is that we must be careful to not stereotype based on our experiences.

i disagree. for example, if i go to an alien world filled with blue and purple aliens. and every purple alien i see tries to kill me then i should assume that the purple people are dangerous. now if i go to a different alien world and i see purple aliens who look like the aliens of the other world maybe i give them a second chance, but if i return to that first world i should definitely be wary of those damned purple killers.

i judge every system of thought(or in the case of many theists lack thereof) by the believers in that system. and every person i meet who claims to be part of a particular system of thought helps me make a judgment on whether that system is valid or if the people in that system are worth my time. christianity mostly comes up short. though i have met some christians who are exceptions, ultimately christianity is irrational and the teachings in the bible are not about love and harmony.

and islam is definitely not a religion of love and beauty.

Scottyman

I tend to agree with Starboy on this one Sabine. I do very much so respect your position though. I think the majority of "christians" that visit this site are more concerned with "reforming" or "saving" the souls of the secular members who have come to this site for communication with other like minded people. I also agree with Starboy that the major religions have a long history of opression to people that will not conform to their ideals. A great example of this is Pat Robertson who has said many times that "atheists do not belong in our government" when the simple fact is that religion does not belong there in the first place. But there they are, making policy that affects us all.

seebs

I don't have statistics either way, but I could easily believe this to be true. However, this is what I'd expect; there's a huge sampling error, in that Christians who just like hanging out and debating are likely to be more comfortable on a site with fewer people who hate Christians.

I am not convinced yet that I have ever seen a philosophy whose adherents do not have such a history.

Do you mean that religion should not be a part of our government (which I'd agree with) or that no religious people should be a part of our government? The second strikes me as wrong for the same reasons Robertson is wrong. The former, I agree with. One of the unfortunate problems of the way our representative government is structured is that the majority is overrepresented... But with that in mind, things as they are ought to be nearly tolerable, and may improve if a few people can be educated on why separation of church and state is a Good Thing.

seebs

Okay, that's what I thought. Why does it make you "angry"? That sounds to me like you have the same problem that all the other religious people do - other religions bother you.

Strangely, black people have been known to take it as an "attack" when white people express certain opinions about 'em. A sufficiently hostile "opinion", when expressed, may well be taken as an attack.

The massive inconsistency in your point of view troubles me, yes.

I would guess that any impartial observer reading your posts would conclude, quite clearly, that you believe religions with a supernatural component to be "false".

Sure. I'll do my best to keep your claims straight. Meanwhile, you might try to remember that no one except you has ever put forth the idea of demons posessing a car in these debates.

That's quite possible. Religion, after all, is not an all-purpose tool, any more than science is. There are plenty of reasons for which I try to make the world a better place, but my success or failure to do so is not necessarily the only concern I have.

Parts of it, certainly - and significant ones - but that doesn't mean that individual Christians don't have other priorities.

To put this another way: It is not a priority of "homosexuality" to make the world a better place; "homosexuality" has to do with what types of sexual partners you're interested in. However, I have never met a homosexual person who did *not* wish to make the world a better place.

Christianity is largely concerned with the fate of the soul; however, Christians who are paying attention will likely try to make the world a better place, and the vast majority of them do so, same as everyone else.

I'm aware that some of you do. However, many of you have taken the time to learn a bit about Christians, and don't feel that way at all.

I see no difference between your firm assertion that this world is all there is, and anyone worrying about something else is "destructive", and the fundies who insist that trying to improve the world is "wasting time you could spend working on your relationship with God". Overspecialization is always a nasty thing.

I see no scrutiny here. I mean, let's be blunt: So far, your best attempt to describe your perception of my belief systems was a sarcastic comment about cars posessed by demons. It's clear that you haven't even made an effort to understand what people who accept the idea of the supernatural might believe.

Furthermore, why should I ask you these questions? There are much friendlier people with whom I can discuss these things. I've had a great deal of fun talking to many atheists, here and elsewhere, about their view of the world, and I enjoy it immensely.

My only interest in talking to you, at the moment, is to explore the way in which you have become so hostile to "supernatural religion", and it's become pretty clear that you have a number of false beliefs about the category of belief systems thus described; you repeatedly refer to people "accepting supernatural explanations over natural ones automatically" and other such, and you kepe doing this no matter how often it is pointed out that this is an inaccurate description. Your opposition to "supernatural religion" strikes me as having the same roots as Falwell's complaints about "atheism"; you have invented a giant straw man almost entirely unlike the thing you claim opposition to, and attack the straw man constantly. Having seen you turn your wrath on good people for bad reasons, I see yet another similarity; your attacks on other atheists for not being "real" atheists could be turned into fundamentalist rants against liberal Christians by search-and-replace on a few key words. This is, frankly, quite impressive.

However, I see no scrutiny here. Other people have asked questions about my beliefs, explored them, and (I would guess) learned a fair bit about them. You've made up insane straw men and ridiculed things that are almost never even similar to me.

My initial opinion is being reinforced; you're just as religious as all the Christian fundies, you've just got a different set of beliefs that you're willing to fight for, and unwilling to examine seriously. Seems weird to me; I've been assuming you had some bad experiences with religious people as a kid.

seebs

What can I possibly say?

Amie

Hi Beyelzu

so if I meet 100 atheists and all of them are assholes I should assume that all the ones in the world I have not met are assholes as well?

Everybody is different.

By doing that I would be limiting potential beautiful relationships in my life. I'll pass...

Have you studied it? or are you basing your opinion on a horrible experience with some fanatics?