Vorkosigan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by echidna
Actually seems there�s much literature on Cuba�s health system :

Yes, there is quite a bit out there. The problem is that a ton of it comes from Cuban exile groups; even the testimony in the peer-reviewed literature. So I am leery of relying on the data from either the Cuban gov't or the Cuban exile community, both have agendas.

My personal experience of authoritarian gov'ts is exactly what one of the articles noted: reality is created by coercive manipulation of people and massaging the numbers to get favorable outcomes.

Vorkosigan

Skeptictank

Yugoslavia? Seriously moon? You need to do a better job of picking your examples.
Yugoslavia had nothing to do with "socialsm vs. captialism" and everything to do with ethnic and religious hatreds. Also note that at the request of the "oh so competent" Europeans we let the EC/EU community try and handle the problem before we got involved at all. It was only after their abject failure that the US finally pulled their asses out of the fire and forced a peace accord, much to the great thanks of the Bosnian Muslims and Croats, who were being exterminated by your socialist "friends" Slobodan and Radovan.

THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

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LOLSDOMA!

What, exactly do you think Imre Nagy would say to this? Ooops, I'm sorry, he would probably be silent, due to the fact that he was executed by the KGB after the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact invaded Hungary in 1956 to keep them on the "path to socialism". A path which was blazed with tanks.

Hmmmm, how about East Berlin in 1953? Czechoslovakia in 1948 and 1968? I doubt Tibetans, who had a tradition of independence going back centuries, would concur with your opinion on the non expansionist nature of "communist" countries.

Now, I thought that was interesting enough, but then I actually see a debate as to wether or not the Socialist countries have a freer press then the Western democracies? WTF?
I mean, we have many serious problems with corporate influence, and lack of dissenting opinions in our {American} media, but to actually compare the Press in the Soviet Union favourably
to our media? The country where the main newpaper, Pravda, had its stories dictated to it by the state every day?
Oh well, I guess I was wrong! My "Bourgeois biases" {can a travel agent be bourgeois?} blinded me to "the Truth"{TM} !
And, to prove it, I humbly submit these examples of real press freedom, from the state that proudly carries high the banner of Proletarian revolution, North Korea. These stories are from www.kcna.co.jp

Let us take after general Kim Jong Il, great man produced by Heaven

Pyongyang, December 9 (KCNA) -- "Kenichi Ogami, secretary general of the international institute of the juche idea, published an article on the greatness of the respected general Kim Jong Il. In the article titled "Let us take after general Kim Jong Il, great man produced by heaven" the author stressed that general Kim Jong Il is a great sun and a great man who clearly indicates the road for mankind to take in the 21st century. General Kim Jong Il is indeed a most ideal, great man whom all humankind should follow through centuries, the author said, pointing to some of his human traits from which humankind should learn. he went on to say: General Kim Jong Il has perfect loyalty to the leader, that is, the most important of qualities and traits which the successor to the leader should have. It is he who has realized on the highest level the unanimous desire of the Korean people and the world progressive people who want to preserve the great president Kim Il Sung in state. The juche philosophy is the philosophy of president Kim Il Sung and, at the same time, the political philosophy and revolutionary philosophy of general Kim Jong Il. General Kim Jong Il values the juche philosophy very much and has performed exploits for human history in comprehensively systematizing, developing and enriching it. Consummated in the juche philosophy are his juche-based world outlook, the outlook on social history, the outlook on the revolution, the outlook on life, the outlook on organisation, the outlook on the masses, the outlook on morality and the outlook on love. For his steadfast faith and courage, Kim Jong Il is the most famous general in the world. He is ceaselessly giving on-the-spot guidance to forefront posts and socialist construction sites with confidence despite the more undisguised manoeuvres of the imperialists against the dprk. He looks pacific and energetic at all times. Only a great man full of faith can have such great looks. His characteristics are great benevolence for the people and a merciless blow at the enemy. The korean people fully take after him. They accept his outlook on life as their own, live not merely for today but for the future's sake and vigorously advance toward the final victory. As led by general Kim Jong Il, a peerless great man, whom humankind should follow and take after, the progressive humankind aspiring after independence will greet the 21st century as Kim Jong Il's century. "


Anniversary of Kim Jong Il's work marked
Pyongyang, December 25 (KCNA) --
" Rodong Sinmun Wednesday dedicates an article to the 7th anniversary of Kim Jong Il's work "Respecting the Forerunners of the Revolution is a Noble Moral Obligation of Revolutionaries." The work, published on Dec. 25, Juche 84 (1995), clarifies it is a noble moral obligation and a duty of revolutionaries to respect forerunners of the revolution.
The article continues:
The sagacity of Kim Jong Il's leadership lies in that he trained the Korean people to be true revolutionaries intensely loyal to President Kim Il Sung.
The president's immortal revolutionary career and exploits are shining century after century thanks to Kim Jong Il's noble moral obligation to carry forward his idea and exploits 100 per cent.
The Korean people are now devoting their all to their struggle to glorify the president's idea and exploits forever.
Kim Jong Il's wise guidance is found in glorifying the exploits of the revolutionary forerunners, leading all the people to live and work as they did, making the whole society replete with comradely love and obligation and cementing the single-hearted unity of our revolution as firm as a rock.
His revolutionary obligation to the revolutionary forerunners finds its expression in the fact that he made the patriotic spirit displayed by anti-Japanese revolutionaries shine as a source of socialist patriotism, took measures to spruce up the area of Mt. Paektu as a base for education in revolutionary traditions and glorified the revolutionary spirit and exploits of the anti-Japanese revolutionary fighters.
It is based on his warm comradeship and human love that the leader and the people brave difficulties and hardships as revolutionary comrades sharing the same destiny in upholding the army-based policy in the DPRK."

With such shining examples of real freedom out there, I often wonder why some of our more principled communists don't leave "the belly of the beast", and move to Pyongyang, seeing as how its pretty much the last hardline "Communist" state out there.
Sure, it might be a "deformed workers state", or maybe even "State Capitalist", but hey, I'm sure they'd be open to your suggestions on how to realize their full revolutionary potential!
Respect,
HQB

Loren Pechtel

The socialists aren't looking at reality. I was there in 75. We had a run-in with the police due to a screwup by a passport official.

The telling part of the situation: After we had resolved the problem with the police they wanted us to file a report about what had happened. This actually turned out to be a bigger problem than the debate with the immigration authorities. The problem was the form was in Romanian--a language we did not speak a word of. Nobody would help us translate, though--it was a police matter and they wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole. (Never mind that the identity of the translator would not be known.) Finally a businessman from Vienna overheard our problems and offered to help.

Loren Pechtel

And how many countries have the Communists attacked?

Loren Pechtel

However, the world is more than just communist and capitalist. There are plenty of countries that are basically corrupt. Such countries shouldn't be used to judge the merits of whatever their economic system nominally is. Note that just about all communist countries fall into this category.

Me and Me

Pechtel

I know that the world isn't just Communist and Capitalist. It is wrong to lump all Capitalist countries such as Iran with the U.S. just as it is wrong to lump all Communist and or Socialist countries together.

hal9000

So is The flat earth research society, and it is just about as relevant to this discussion as your post is. There is no functioning communist nation around save Cuba, and it's tottering and ready to fail as soon as Castro dies. They have all been a failure so far, and it doesn�t look like it will ever change.

beyelzu

I really dont understand why the communists dont get the point of the op. communism always fails, this thread is dedicated to trying to understand why it sucks so much ass. Capitalism succeeds at least some of the time, and mixed economies do pretty well so they must suck less ass.

hal9000

Yep