Automaton

Speaking from a primarily "lack-of-belief" standpoint, it is very odd that one should ask what this is based on, because, obviously, to that person, it is merely a state of one less actual belief in their belief repituour. If straight out one does not contain a certain belief, of any nature, it is usually because of lack of compelling reason to hold that belief in their minds. Assuming one is not insane, or at least delusional, as soon as compelling reason comes either way for a belief, that person will form an actual belief about it. In other words, atheists are generally atheists (as I, myself, primarily am) due to simply the lack of evidence or argument in their minds. All atheists lack the belief that "God exists" represents a true proposition, but some hold the position (this is an actual belief now) that "God does not exist" indeed represents a true proposition. This is "strong atheism", regarded by some to be categorically different from the standard form of atheism described above. Many (including, again, myself), are somewhere inbetween the two. I feel that the very concept of God is without shape or form, it encompasses everything and anything, and in many cases its attributes lead to contradictions and nonsense. There could be some form of entity out there that I might be inclined to call God (and no, I wouldn't call a powerful alien God), but until someone has posited a definition worthy of contemplation, I shall remain a strong atheist.

Dr Rick

The horrific misery in the world is evidence against the existence of gods, and an even stronger argument against the existence of any worthy of our worhip or adoration

Rick

[ August 02, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

rebelnerd

I believe all religions are now and have always been based on the root cause of death fear. Who wants to die? I don't. About six months ago my son (age 11) had "the thought." He realized that he was mortal.

I remember too my own time of having "the thought" at about his age. It occured to me that humans would go to just about any lengths to avoid this fear. What could I do to avoid this fear?

Religion offers a chance to avoid having to have these thoughts. It dangles the carrot of an afterlife in front of a mind and says "You don't have to be afraid of death, just follow the carrot! You will live forever if you just follow these simple rules...."

To me this is the ultimate worst form of intellecutal cheating to one's self. By belief in
religion, one can dodge the "thought bullet" of death. And also get off the hook of a lot of morality based issues by being "saved" or praying one's self out of damnation.

I have yet to experience or see anything to convince me that there is any kind of omnipotent or otherwise diety(s).

To me anyone who's morality is derived from a religious source is not to be completely trusted. How can you completely trust someone who is not intellecually honest with their own self? I believe true morality is based on one's own judgment of what is right and wrong and the values needed to co-exist peacefuly with other humans.


The above posted May 29, 2002

(I love cut & paste )

Filo

David Bowden

Because there's no sound case for the existence of a God. I'm not aware of an argument which permits me to give the proposition "God exists" provisional assent, with intellectual integrity.

I do not have anything "against" God per se (though I do find much objectionable material in the books claiming to reveal God to humankind, and also I am shocked at the more notorious things done "in God's name," typically without noticeable censure by other believers - unless it comes generations later). I am not unwilling to accept a sound argument in Her/His favor. But the utter lack of the latter (after so much trying, over so many centuries) strongly suggests the utter nonexistence of the former.

SUTG, should anyone believe in x (Elvis or JFK still being alive, "souls," ESP, God, Zeus, Brahma, Grendel, resurrection, phlogiston, Martians, the Loch Ness monster), if a sound case has not been made for x's existence?

If on principle you say "no" in answer to that question, then atheism is a completely sound position to hold, just as is disbelief in Bigfoot or UFO cults. If on principle you say "yes," then what means do you have for separating bogus claims from legitimate ones?

-Wanderer

"It is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true."
-Bertrand Russell

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: wide-eyed wanderer ]</p>

DMB

I think a more interesting question is: why does anyone believe in god(s) in the first place?

Filo gives part of the answer. In fact I have frequently observed that people who claim to believe that when they die they will be transported to an unimaginably better life are the very ones who seem most worried about dying. I suppose that could be attributable to their belief in hell and doubt as to whether they are personally sheep or goats, but you could take it as evidence that people who are very afraid of death are more likely to clutch at straws and believe in a wonderful afterlife.

I think there are other reasons besides. Human beings (and, to a degree, chimpanzees) seem to have an inbuilt concept of fairness. "It isn't fair!" wails the young child when someone acts badly to him/her. As we get older, it should become obvious that life is not in any way fair. Good people, like Job, suffer great misfortunes. The wicked often flourish. This offends our innate sense of fairness. Many cultures/beliefs entertain the idea that we shall be weighed in the balance and either rewarded for our good qualities or punished for our misdeeds. In xianity, this is a very fully developed system, although there are considerable differences of interpretation among the various sects. But how comforting to think that our enemies will finally get their comeuppance! How satisfying that however obscure and unvalued we may be now, we nurse the secret that golden crowns await us in the next world, where we shall be properly valued!

I think another motivation for belief in god(s) is that we never fully grow up. As adults, we dimly remember the golden age of early childhood, when parents, particularly our mothers, cuddled us and provided for us and we bore no responsibilites at all. So we can comfort our careworn adult selves by recreating an idealised parental presence in our imaginations.

To address the question of why I am an atheist: well, the others have said most of it for me. I would add that I don't see any value in wishful thinking. Cromwell asked for his portrait to be painted "warts and all". I try to see life as it is, with its good points and its warts.

Mad Kally

Excellent answers everyone.

Kally

Vibr8gKiwi

I don't believe in god because if I did then I'd have to follow him and I'm having too much fun sinning. I guess I just like to rebel. Also belief might get in the way of my choosing to become gay (I've been a heterosexual male for the past 30 years or so, but I think I'll just choose to be gay for kicks). I believed at one time, but people in my church hurt me so I thought I'd get them back by not believing anymore. This probably had something to do with how I couldn't pray in school and was corrupted into believing I came from a monkey. It says in my heart "fool", and I want to have lots of abortions without feeling guilty. I'm sure I missed a few things, but you get the idea.

You other guys are the same way and your "no evidence" and other reasons are just excuses. I know

Oh, another thing I almost forgot--when I was young and impressionable, my peers took me to an evil-atheist-conspiracy camp. Everyone sat around and told emotional testimonies about losing Jesus. It was a little creepy at first, but it really made me see the light when I joined in. And now I have so many friends and they all love me (as long as I believe what they do).

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Vibr8gKiwi ]</p>

D.H. Cross

I tried to start a thread explaining why I don't believe in God and got swamped by problems with definition. I assumed people would know what I meant when I spoke of "theism" as referring most commonly to the Christian conception of God, but such was not the case. Each new conception may shift the reasons for and against belief and can hopelessly confuse a debate. It seems the word "God" is as mixed up as the word "love".

bonduca

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've certainly never been asked this question before.

D.H. Cross

Not all religion does this. For example, some forms of Buddism do not [and I'm not talking about Pure Land]. Some liberal Christians do not believe in a personal afterlife, so their reasons for belief must be different.

In Michael Shermer's book, "How we Believe," his polls indicted that most people believe in God (belief in the existence of one God who is viewed as the creative source of man, the world, and value and who transcends and yet is immanent in the world) because of apparent design in nature. Another interesting fact was most of the people polled think that other people belive because it is consoling. So they attribute emotional reasons to others while thinking their own belief is based on reason.

I do not deny that fear of death can and does play a large part in the belief systems of most, but it may not be so much on the surface of their thoughts after childhood and before old age.