Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Godless Dave · 04-25-2002, 09:43 AM

I often see the existence of the universe given as evidence for the existence of God. The argument goes "Everything must have a cause. God is the First Cause of the universe."

I'll accept "The universe must have a cause" for the sake of this argument. Here's my question:

Why one god? Is the First Cause argument evidence that just one god created the universe? Wouldn't multiple gods make just as much sense?

Here's a second question. Many (not all) theists assume that the creator god suggested by First Cause is benevolent. How is the First Cause argument evidence for a benevolent god? Couldn't the creator just as easily be evil or indifferent? The last seems the most likely to me - a god who created the universe and is watching it happen, like a scientists watches an experiment he designed.

HRG · 04-25-2002, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave:
I often see the existence of the universe given as evidence for the existence of God. The argument goes "Everything must have a cause. God is the First Cause of the universe."

I'll accept "The universe must have a cause" for the sake of this argument. Here's my question:

Why one god? Is the First Cause argument evidence that just one god created the universe? Wouldn't multiple gods make just as much sense?

Or a creator of the universe who is caused himself .....

HRG.

GunnerJ · 04-25-2002, 11:02 AM

I started a thread a while back on just this subject:

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000005&p=7" target="_blank">First Cause Cannot Prove God</a>

Denizens of the E/C forum might want to check it out to see the roots of the Great (or Not-So-Great) Ed Menace. Otherwise, I wouldn't recommend it; it's not a very interesting argument when Ed is involved.

Indifference · 04-25-2002, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave:
Couldn't the creator just as easily be evil or indifferent?

I don't know who this 'evil' is you speek of... but yes, It was easy to create the universe. And the correct speeling of my name is indifference. I think I will send you to hell for that.

GunnerJ · 04-25-2002, 02:59 PM

BTW, I'd like to add that this is a great post. The points it makes are excellent, and I hope we get some serious theistic replies.

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Rimstalker ]

Indifference · 04-25-2002, 03:07 PM

sorry...

Undercurrent · 04-25-2002, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave:
I often see the existence of the universe given as evidence for the existence of God. The argument goes "Everything must have a cause. God is the First Cause of the universe."

I prefer the sylogism:

P1: Everything that exists must have a cause.
P2: God, (arguably) by definition, does not have a cause.
c: Therefore, no God can exist.

m.

GunnerJ · 04-26-2002, 07:06 AM

Quote:

sorry...

No, no, Indifference! I wasn't scolding you! My comment was a subtle, esoteric reference to Ed's "arguments" ont he subject, which I do not consider "serious."

Godless Dave · 04-26-2002, 07:06 AM

Hmm, no theist replies yet. Thanks for the compliment, Rimstalker.

Godless Dave · 04-29-2002, 05:37 AM

No takers?

04-25-2002, 09:43 AM	#1
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	First Cause question for theists I often see the existence of the universe given as evidence for the existence of God. The argument goes "Everything must have a cause. God is the First Cause of the universe." I'll accept "The universe must have a cause" for the sake of this argument. Here's my question: Why one god? Is the First Cause argument evidence that just one god created the universe? Wouldn't multiple gods make just as much sense? Here's a second question. Many (not all) theists assume that the creator god suggested by First Cause is benevolent. How is the First Cause argument evidence for a benevolent god? Couldn't the creator just as easily be evil or indifferent? The last seems the most likely to me - a god who created the universe and is watching it happen, like a scientists watches an experiment he designed.

04-25-2002, 02:59 PM	#5
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	BTW, I'd like to add that this is a great post. The points it makes are excellent, and I hope we get some serious theistic replies. [ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Rimstalker ]</p>

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04-25-2002, 11:02 AM	#3
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	I started a thread a while back on just this subject: <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000005&p=7" target="_blank">First Cause Cannot Prove God</a> Denizens of the E/C forum might want to check it out to see the roots of the Great (or Not-So-Great) Ed Menace. Otherwise, I wouldn't recommend it; it's not a very interesting argument when Ed is involved.

04-25-2002, 03:07 PM	#6
Indifference Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 165	sorry...

04-26-2002, 07:06 AM	#9
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Hmm, no theist replies yet. Thanks for the compliment, Rimstalker.

04-29-2002, 05:37 AM	#10
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	No takers?

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