Ab_Normal

You're doing better than I am on the riled front, sullster... I get pretty equally peeved at new agey crap and organized religion. Maybe that's why my stomach hurts all the time.

christ-on-a-stick

Greetings my dog earl,

To answer your questions from my own experience...

1. I'm sure a lot of my "passion" for discussing/arguing against religion and trying to promote freethinking stems from my realization that I wasted many years of my life for having been taught and believing what is essentially a big lie. It has impacted my life profoundly in many ways (I can elaborate if you wish) that I see affecting others as well and if there is anything that I can do or say to encourage others to think for themselves and question what they have many times blindly accepted, I want to do so. I don't push my beliefs (or lack thereof) on anyone but if people want to discuss religion with me, I welcome the opportunity.

2. I feel that religion (particularly the fundamentalist variety) is ultimately damaging to society and prevents our intellectual "evolution" as a species - we're still in our infancy when you think about the fact that so many people still believe in fairy tales. Religion = superstition, and that holds us back from our potential.

3. I am particularly concerned about the preservation of the wall between church and state here in the US and what I see as recent attempts to weaken it. I have serious fears about this country becoming a theocracy. Some people think I am over-reacting or exaggerating but I think it's a mistake to feel that "something like that could never happen"... I don't think it would happen overnight but what does?

Sabine Grant

Even though it may seem contradictory to my faith ( at least the christian title projected in the US), I have the same concern. I will venture to say that this country is now a theocracy. God has become the propeller and great justification to war. It is happening and not necessarly supported by this christian. I deeply believe in the separation of church and state. I will never entrust men to " do God's Will" as a believer. History has demonstrated that God is used for personal agendas which result in atrocities and the expansion of mercantilism. Also to boost pride. Also to exploit. To misguide. To decieve.
It is a shame... to watch the deplorable display of so called " godliness" as leaders of this land contradict what I percieve to be the character of Christ. No doubts in my mind that Christ separated the laws of the land from his teachings... otherwise he would have led the jews and gentiles who followed him to rebel against the romans.
This is a time again when the divine is used as a tool to gain more power.
I grieve the whole thing.

Justin70

To get the topic back on track . . .

Earl,

This isn't a stupid question at all IMHO! I've often thought the same thing just before I jump into a debate with a Christian. I used to be VERY adversarial in my atheistic 'youth' - always out there to try correct Christian's worldview.

I think the reason I often shudder when I hear prayer or hear religious people talk of doctrine or theology is because I *KNOW* that what they're preaching is garbage. I've SEEN what literalist Christianity can do and the most it spreads, the more I truly feel it's a disease of the mind.

Nowadays, I just don't care. I've come to the conclusion that ANYONE that wants to change their religious view is going to do it because THEY want to. Not because of MY 'preeching' to them. If someone truly wants to sit down and actually LISTEN to what I have to say then great! Otherwise, I just let it go.

So to answer your question, I think a lot of atheists find it incredibly infuriating and annoying that people can have such a very 'wrong' view of the scriptures and the world. Also, the fact that literal Christianity can spill into science also shows the political power of religion. Creationism is about as far from science as you can get, yet some schools teach it? How did that happen? See what I mean?

Great question! Keep it up =)

Justin

my dog earl

Thanks Justin, this seems to be a hard topic to not stray from.

As I said before, I am not being harrased by believers, but if and when I do get into a debate with one or more of them I get so passionate about it. I got into agnostisism by thinking I might find peace of mind or enlightenment in Christianity or religion. It was a long shot I know, but I was needing something or so I thought. As I got into the Bible it didn't take long to see that this wasn't the path I was going to follow. I really don't want to insult the fundies here, but Jesus, wake up.........do you not read the same thing as I do? Genisis............unbelievable.......I mean really.

I don't know what comes over me.......I guess its just like watching :banghead: and you ask yourself, "why is that guy banging his head against a wall, doesn't he know that it is a stupid thing to do?" But he keeps on :banghead: and :banghead: and insists you should do it too.

I won't give up..........don't ask me why!

Justin70

Earl,

I think it's VERY important to consider one major thing:

No matter HOW well you formulate ANY argument/debate, unless the person is OPEN to listening and really really TAKING IN what you or someone else is saying, it isn't going to matter at ALL to them.

That's why I ignore it for the most part unless they REALLY want to hear it.

When someone isn't listening, nothing you say matters. So why even try? Just look at 90% of the posts by Magus55. Case in point.

I hear ya though, Earl, it's tough.

Justin

Magus55

I could say the same thing about you Justin, why should I listen to your arguments, when all anyone does on this board is insult me and make sarcastic remarks about what I believe in? Atheists have no desire to hear about religion and no matter what any theist says, they will ignore it, make rude remarks about it, or try their best to argue against it so they never have to accept what could be true.

Demigawd

Just because you believe you're right doesn't mean you're right. That's the central flaw of Christian faith, perhaps any religious faith.

Or about personal relationships with invisible friends either.

Now, go respond to Mageth's request in your S&S thread concerning the bible's scientific accuracy. Research the linguistic origin of the astronomical names.

Yellum Notnef

Who's making you listen to anyone elses arguments?
You're here peddling your particular flavor of Christian B.S. by YOUR own choice. Nobody sought you out and begged you to come here and nobody is begging you to stay.

But you just keep going on and on and on about it regardless of the reception you KNEW it was going to get here. Is it any wonder why your sales pitches receive insults and sarcastic remarks? How else are people to respond to someone who is so frustratingly dense and annoying?

Justin70

Magus,

Many people (including me) have posted MANY pieces of evidence against virtually (if not all) points you've postulated FOR Christianity and you ignore almost all of them. Why not go back and discuss the issues that you left unresolved?

I made a lengthy post asking WHY you are around. I don't understand why you choose to post to these boards when it's obvious you don't wish to indulge in empirical discussions or logical arguments. So I ask you again: Why are you here?

People here insult you because you go out of your WAY to dodge information. You don't respond to people's questions and you throw the same rhetoric that we all have heard for YEARS about how we're going to hell. I don't know about you, but someone walking up to me and calling me a 'Sinner' or saying that 'You're going to hell!' after the umteenth time is probably gonna incite some anger in me so I don't blame anyone for their insults. You're a very frustrating person to talk to simply because you don't THINK!

I think everyone will agree with me that if you wish to come here and DISCUSS issues and follow logical trains of thought and answer questions then we probably would never insult you but consider your remarks to us as insults as well. I'd respect the heck out of you if you just admitted you honestly did not KNOW half the time when people asked you point blank questions! But instead, you either ignore them or just post more biblical theology to empirical issues.

So, Magus, next time you consider one of us atheists or agnostics or even a fellow Christian rude, consider the fact that you walked into this forum and threw us a thousand questions which we all answered and you never provided an answer to any of OUR questions outside of theology. Consider that for once. I, for one, am not rude to you because you are a Christian. I am rude to you because you're insulting to fellow people on this board and to myself with the things you say. Sit back and think about what you say and it's implications for once and maybe you'll garner more respect.