Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HelenM · 05-05-2002, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spirit Branded:
Hi RW (I hope you know and remember me)

I am a Christian because it has always been my perception that those who choose freely to align their will to God's generally benefit from doing so ... and where they do not ... it is not because the process is invalid ... but because it is not always easy.

Blessings and Peace

SB

Hi SB

I remember you - the B&P at the end is a dead giveaway!

where they do not ... it is not because the process is invalid ... but because it is not always easy

Have you ever noticed how shaming this line of reasoning is?

It gets God off the hook though and as such is very useful in helping us avoid asking the difficult questions about 'how could God...?' Because "Oh He didn't - it was all our fault'

This is no better than the 'health and prosperity gospel' which teaches that the only reason we aren't all rich and healthy is because we didn't have enough faith (or we were sinning too much for God to listen) when we asked God for money and health. Else He would have given it to us.

But OTOH maybe the only reason some Christians are rich is because they collected money from other Christians who lacked the discernment to realize how much of that money would buy the rich person's additional house...

(Either directly or through royalties off purchases)

To try to 'save God's reputation' by blaming people whenever things don't work out - the cost of that is very high

. Are you sure you want to do that? How does shaming people go with 'blessings and peace'?

I'm just asking...

love
Helen

Spirit Branded · 05-05-2002, 02:44 AM

Hi Helen

"Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" said Christ.

I think God has always been off the hook ... unless you say he should not have created anything ... but I know of no one who is prepared to vote for creation to be cancelled.

However, though perfectly good, and deeply disappointed by the plight in which mankind put themselves ... he still accepted responsibility for the human stuff ups by sending Christ.

All that we now have to do is learn how to love our enemies while they continue to hate us.

That is a tough call ... yet people say it is easy to be a Christian (or any peaceful religious follower) in a world where hate explodes with great frequency.

Being a Christian is never easy ... and blaming God for human folly is indeed an easy cop out ... after all God is ready to forgive even those who do not know what they do ... thanks to some of Christ's last words.

It is humans who err and do not forgive.

Blessings and Peace

SB

HelenM · 05-05-2002, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spirit Branded:
Hi Helen

Hi

"Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" said Christ.

I think God has always been off the hook ... unless you say he should not have created anything ... but I know of no one who is prepared to vote for creation to be cancelled.

However, though perfectly good, and deeply disappointed by the plight in which mankind put themselves ... he still accepted responsibility for the human stuff ups by sending Christ.

He sends Christ for some and sends the rest to hell...oh, I forgot. Am I recalling right that you don't believe in hell?

So...if there's no hell then why not forget about God and just go around being nice to each other because it's mutually beneficial?

And that's a serious question, as serious as I can ask.

love
Helen

Spirit Branded · 05-05-2002, 03:06 AM

Hello Panta Pei

Please re-read what I said carefully ... I did not say that Christians are automatically or necessarily better off ... in fact I said the opposite.

As to knowing the will of God ... by their fruits you shall know them ... when I see a person doing the things that Christ taught ... I know the Father's will is in operation.

Any other questions?

Blessings and Peace

SP

Spirit Branded · 05-05-2002, 03:09 AM

Hi again Helen

Why not be nice without God?

Because we can't ... witness the savagery of the last century ... continuing into this one.

Blessings and Peace

SB

Panta Pei · 05-05-2002, 03:13 AM

Hey SB:

"However, though perfectly good, and deeply disappointed by the plight in which mankind put themselves ... he still accepted responsibility for the human stuff ups by sending Christ."

So then this makes sense to you:

God so loved the world that he fathered himself so that he could sacrifice himself to himself in order to appease his own anger at his own creation.

Some plan.

"It is humans who err and do not forgive"

To err is human, I agree. To torture your children for an eternity is divine. Ah, that loving christian doctrine.

As serious as I can get

HelenM · 05-05-2002, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spirit Branded:
Hi again Helen

Why not be nice without God?

Because we can't ... witness the savagery of the last century ... continuing into this one.

Blessings and Peace

SB

Because we can't

Well, using Chesterton's quote - maybe we haven't tried yet, rather than we tried and failed...

I hope you realize that 'because we can't' is entirely a statement of belief/opinion.

love
Helen

p.s. I appreciate that you were kind in your posts to me when I was ill.

Not many theists were as kind as you; maybe no other theists I met here, were...

[ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]

HelenM · 05-05-2002, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Panta Pei:
To torture your children for an eternity is divine.

Steve I think I'm remembering that SB doesn't necessarily believe in hell - if so you'll have to take a different approach with him

Maybe he's one of those 'slippery liberals' - no offense, SB!

(By 'slippery' I mean, theologically- that's all!

)

love
Helen

[ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]

Panta Pei · 05-05-2002, 03:24 AM

Oh, well then, another 'christian who is not'

Sounds 'trolly' to me, IMHO.

Thanks for the head's up.

HelenM · 05-05-2002, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Panta Pei:
Oh, well then, another 'christian who is not'

Sounds 'trolly' to me, IMHO.

Thanks for the head's up.

I believe SB is sincere in his beliefs - I just don't think he has the same beliefs as those that tend to be referred to here as 'fundies'

Anyway I should let him speak for himself!

love
Helen

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05-05-2002, 02:44 AM	#22
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Hi Helen "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" said Christ. I think God has always been off the hook ... unless you say he should not have created anything ... but I know of no one who is prepared to vote for creation to be cancelled. However, though perfectly good, and deeply disappointed by the plight in which mankind put themselves ... he still accepted responsibility for the human stuff ups by sending Christ. All that we now have to do is learn how to love our enemies while they continue to hate us. That is a tough call ... yet people say it is easy to be a Christian (or any peaceful religious follower) in a world where hate explodes with great frequency. Being a Christian is never easy ... and blaming God for human folly is indeed an easy cop out ... after all God is ready to forgive even those who do not know what they do ... thanks to some of Christ's last words. It is humans who err and do not forgive. Blessings and Peace SB

05-05-2002, 03:06 AM	#24
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Hello Panta Pei Please re-read what I said carefully ... I did not say that Christians are automatically or necessarily better off ... in fact I said the opposite. As to knowing the will of God ... by their fruits you shall know them ... when I see a person doing the things that Christ taught ... I know the Father's will is in operation. Any other questions? Blessings and Peace SP

05-05-2002, 03:09 AM	#25
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Hi again Helen Why not be nice without God? Because we can't ... witness the savagery of the last century ... continuing into this one. Blessings and Peace SB

05-05-2002, 03:13 AM	#26
Panta Pei Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: in the middle of things Posts: 722	Hey SB: "However, though perfectly good, and deeply disappointed by the plight in which mankind put themselves ... he still accepted responsibility for the human stuff ups by sending Christ." So then this makes sense to you: God so loved the world that he fathered himself so that he could sacrifice himself to himself in order to appease his own anger at his own creation. Some plan. "It is humans who err and do not forgive" To err is human, I agree. To torture your children for an eternity is divine. Ah, that loving christian doctrine. As serious as I can get

05-05-2002, 03:24 AM	#29
Panta Pei Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: in the middle of things Posts: 722	Oh, well then, another 'christian who is not' Sounds 'trolly' to me, IMHO. Thanks for the head's up.

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