Loren Pechtel

The blackmail angle is a good argument *AGAINST* the don't-ask-don't-tell policy. I don't think a closeted gay belongs in anything resembling a secure position, but I don't think a closeted <anything important> belongs in such a position.

Jessi

True, but not everyone's out. I reason that if you were in the military that you'd need to be out to avoid that.. anyway, that was my mom's reason, and I don't think she's right, I just thought it was another angle to be considered.

Jessi

Also, on the separation of the sexes, I don't think that men should be banned from places and clubs, except places where it would be dangerous or counterproductive to have them there. Can't think of an example, but I'm sure there's one. Though, maybe I only think this way because I'm fairly sure no one wants to see me in the shower..

Neo

Loren,

You never answered my question!

Are you currently in or were you ever in the US Armed Forces?

Neo

Just Another Infidel

As a former Navy Veteran of 20+ years this was not my experience at all. If I was surrounded by that many gay men I think I would have had some indication.

I basically agree with Hubble head on this. But I don't think intelligence is nearly as important as the mental and emotional conditioning of the military personnel prior to their enlistment into the service. Like it or not, the military population is a representative slice of American society.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned on this thread is the threat of physical harm to anybody identified as gay. Some of the military population come from extremely intolerant environments and would welcome an opportunity to seriously injure a homosexual. When an incident like this happens, it costs the military time and money not to mention bad press.

As Hubble said, general acceptance of gays will not happen anytime soon. We're talking about an institution which still can't accept facial hair, even when the tight fit of a gas mask is not an immediate concern.

JAI

Neo

It's good to know you know how to 'condust' and control yourself DC. However, you and your code of morality, decency and respect for others is not in question. And I find myself asking you the same question I've asked Loren. Are you currently now or have you ever served in the Armed Forces?

Neo

Loren Pechtel

Nope.

Neo

Then you and those like you whom have never served will never understand the reality of this issue.

As a heterosexual male (or female) living day in and day out with other males (you assume to be just as heterosexual as you are - the socially acceptable and preferred sexual orientation), showering with them, eating with them, sleeping in the same fox holes, Hummers, tents, etc. as them, soldiering side by side with them, paratrooping right behind them you have to establish a certain bond and degree of trust with them. To find out someone among you, be it one you've personally and professionally befriended, or just another team member is gay changes everything! It not only affects the moral (by breaking down and destroying that bond and degree of trust) of the platoon/company but it puts people at risk, especially the person who is discovered to be gay.

Given the complexity of the Armed Forces in its point and purpose (both in Peace Time and War) and the social and psychological dynamics that holds a unit together by maintaining its integrity and combat effectiveness, finding out one of your own is a homosexual brings everything to a grinding hault! Hence, the 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' policy and the need to discharge those soldiers found to be homosexuals.

Now, in regards to any rebuttals of the 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' policy you would be right in saying, "What you don't know, won't hurt you." The key point being that of 'knowing'. If you don't know, of course it wouldn't matter if the other person was gay or not because you simply would not know. As such, the integrity of the unit and its combat effectiveness is maintained. However, at the very moment that knowledge (finding out a soldier is gay) is obtained it does in fact change everything. That is why the military (and likewise the government) has taken the stance that it's best not to know and if it does become known, then it has to be taken out of the equation, period.

Neo

[ December 22, 2002: Message edited by: Neo ]</p>

Aerion

Those of you who have never been in the military may not understand this, but those of you who HAVE been in the military SHOULD understand this. It's all about esprit de corp. Training a combat unit to work together as a well oiled machine requires a certain mutual support and trust. It requires each person in the unit to be working for the good of the whole. Combat is an extremely critical and high stress environment. The mission could be endangered if there are prejudices, personal anamosities and fear. The military has a long experience in establishing this esprit de corps. I think the powers that be are worried about the effects of adding gays into the equation and this is not without justification.

The military is not just another workplace. Military personel are expected to perform under conditions and with stresses that are unlike any other in the world. The effectiveness of each military person is a matter of life and death. You cannot compare the military to a regular job waiting tables at the pub.

I'm sure the top military brass know all of the arguments you guys are mentioning. I'm sure most of of them want to allow gays in the military openly. But they are taking a gradual and cautious approach to integrating them in. Blacks were not suddenly dumped into units. They started out in separate units and over time blacks were integrated into specific tasks and then fully integrated. The same approach was used with women.

Like I said in my previous post on this subject. Give it time. In 10-15 years, gays will be openly allowed in the military. Remember, you heard it here first!

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by Neo:
As a heterosexual male (or female) living day in and day out with other males (you assume to be just as heterosexual as you are - the socially acceptable and preferred sexual orientation), showering with them, eating with them, sleeping in the same fox holes, Hummers, tents, etc. as them, soldiering side by side with them, paratrooping right behind them you have to establish a certain bond and degree of trust with them.

I have, however, spent a period of 5 months in a group travelling together. Other than the three oldies in the group we all saw each other naked several times and I saw the majority of them going to the bathroom (and not just sitting on the toilet, I mean seeing the actual act). At least 80% of meals were eaten together.
Shower facilities were rare but as likely as not bathing involved no privacy whatsoever (that's where most of seeing each other naked came from). Remember, also, that this was a mixed group and mostly young adults--it would be impossible for us not to see and be seen by sexually desirable individuals.

It's true, though, that we didn't need the degree of trust in each other that the military needs. In fact, there were a couple of individuals who you couldn't count on to do their duty if failure to do so wasn't obvious. (ie, in an area with a lot of thieves we had to maintatin a 24/7 watch. Certain individuals might go to the bathroom while on watch and once even they went to their tent.)


To find out someone among you, be it one you've personally and professionally befriended, or just another team member is gay changes everything!

I knew the alignment of the majority of the individuals based on the relationships that existed or developed during the trip. There weren't enough females to go around, though, some of us remained single the whole trip--I had nothing to judge their aligment on. Had one turned out to be gay, though, so what?