tronvillain

droolian:

For me, there is no "huge distinction" since as Darwin pointed out, humans differ form other animals "in degree, not in kind." As a result, I recognize a continuum rather than actually drawing a line. As a result, I'm not especially enthusiastic about eating chimpanzees or dolphins, but I'm okay with eat chickens and cattle.

As I have mentioned before, I weigh the empathy I feel for a given animal against the pleasure I derive from eating them, and in some cases pleasure comes out on top. Now, apparently in your case the empathy you feel for animals always comes out on top. That's fine, and while you may claim that I have an "underdeveloped or desensitized sense of empathy", you have to realize that's just your perspective. I could as easily say that you have the problem, and that your sense of empathy is overdeveloped or oversensitized, but I won't.

The question is not "Do animals experience suffering and fear", but "Does it matter that animals experience suffering and fear?" My answer is often "No."

shamon

Well then, when isn't it immoral, to you?

shamon

When did you go to the slaughterhouses? Just curious.

Rational Ag

I went to Texas A&M, we have them on campus as part of our Agriculture program. When teaching students about agriculture, the faculty sees the need to show them what the industry is about, including all of the details of it. Although I wasn't an agriculture student, my father was, and I went to those facilities out of curiosity.

-Rational Ag

brighid

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Enough said!

Brighid

shamon

I see you’ve returned to finish our discussion. I thought you weren’t going to return my post. Thankfully, we can now continue where we left off:

You ARE perfect. The reason you have allergies is civilization. It’s primarily the result of your ancestors living indoors for thousands of years.

Are you saying that prior to the 20th Century, humans did not have access to dairy, eggs, or fish? If these things existed prior to the 20th Century then humans could be perfectly healthy vegetarians. If those things did exist, then were they man made?

Why must you be insulting? I never implied that you were in need of a knowledge refresher. I’m aware of nutritional requirements.


B12 RDA:
Life-Stage Men Women
Ages 19+ 2.4 mcg 2.4 mcg
All ages 2.6 mcg 2.8 mcg

Where did you get the 6 mcg figure?
<a href="http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/vitb12.html" target="_blank">http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/vitb12.html</a>

It looks like your numbers are a little off. Vegetarianism easily supports the RDA of B12:

Food Amount Vitamin B12 (Micrograms)
Liver, beef 3 ounces 95
Kidney, beef 3 ounces 19
Liver, chicken 3 ounces 16.5
Salmon, steak 3 ounces 3.0
Tuna, light, packed in water 3 ounces 2.5
Yogurt, nonfat, plain 8 ounces 1.5
Beef, lean 3 ounces 1.4
Pacific Halibut 3 ounces 1.2
Milk, whole 1 cup 0.9
Pork, center loin chop 3.5 ounces 0.6
Swiss cheese 1 ounce 0.5
Egg, whole, raw 1 medium 0.4
Chicken, white meat 3 ounces 0.3
Cheese, American processed 1 ounce 0.2

In fact it looks as though meat provides way too much B12. Liver provides 33 times the RDA of B12.

Trout, rainbow, cooked, 3 oz 5.3mcg of B12 - 90% RDA
Salmon, sockeye, cooked, 3 oz 4.9 mcg of B12 – 80% RDA

Meat cannot be the BEST source of B12. The only thing you’ve attempted to prove is that meat has the MOST B12, not that it’s the best. The best is qualitative, not quantitative. Just eat some saltwater non-mammalian fish or an some eggs if you’re that concerned.

brighid

Idiot - I have a headache this moment - but RDA is for SEDENTARY PEOPLE and minimum requirments to avoid certain diseases. AGAIN, lest you have forgotten I am not a sedentary fat ass and workout quite strenuously, have food allergies, etc. and therefore, along with the guidance of a certified nutritionist have come up with a plan that best serves MY needs and specifically addresses those needs of an athlete!!!!!!!! Sorry but I am interested in OPTIMAL health and one that addresses MY unique needs.

And damnit - FISH are flesh - hence meat and you must kill it to it, so how the hell does your "lets not cause suffering to any living creature" consitute the ability to eat and KILL fish??

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brighid

DRFseven

So, shamon, can we get to the point of this topic. Even when people don't need meat, WHY is it immoral to kill animals? Neither you nor any other poster who thinks killing animals is immoral, has offered the slightest explanation of why that is so. What could you be thinking; that any unbacked contention will be accepted?

shamon

I never said we shouldn’t cause suffering to any living creature, I said we shouldn’t cause any UNEEDED suffering. My point was that you don’t have to kill an animal, a mammal, to live healthfully. You don’t. Everyone knows there is a difference between killing animals for food and eating fish. In case you don’t know in the future, whenever I say meat I mean mammals. Mammals have a central nervous system, have emotion, feel pain, etc. Fish do not. We have incisors that support fish eating and the omega 3 fatty acids support proper brain growth, and of course we can eat them raw. This cannot be said for mammals.

Does you diet require 33 times the RDA of B12? This is what you stated, “Again, meat is the best source of B12, beef liver being a far better source then eggs or dairy products, with salmon and trout coming in behind that.”

How often do you eat beef liver? Do you eat 1/33 of a serving each day so you’ll get the RDA?

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: shamon for spelling ]

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: shamon ]</p>

tronvillain

Last time I checked, fish had a central nervous system.