Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Mathews · 07-26-2002, 07:19 AM

Hello Bibliophile,

Quote:

�It may be urged that millions have not the capacity to understand a revelation, although expressed in the plainest words. To this it seems a sufficient reply to ask, why a being of infinite power should create men so devoid of intelligence, that he cannot by any means make known to them his will?�
~R. G. Ingersoll~

Why should it amaze anyone that humans would misunderstand God's revelation. Humans have misunderstood everything else in the Universe ...

Do you unerstand yourself, Bibliophile?

Best Regards,

David Mathews

NOGO · 07-26-2002, 04:56 PM

David Matthews

Your silence is defening.

David Mathews · 07-26-2002, 06:48 PM

Hello NOGO,

Quote:

I agree in the sense that if a man drives a car when drunk and has an accident his children may get hurt.

But what Jesus in Matthew 23 is talking about is entirely different. How?

David: Nations and kingdoms can suffer punishment in response to the sins of former generations. The reason why such events occur is because the life cycle of nations and kingdoms is very much longer than the life cycle of individuals/generations.

For example, if the United States continues to amass debt (4+ trillion dollars) and does not make any effort to pay it off, a day will come when the bill will become due. The generation which is alive at that time will suffer dreadful economic consequences though the sin of fiscal irresponsibility was committed by Americans decades before.

Quote:

Children in the car accident cannot be told "you testify against yourselves when you say that your father drove while he was drunk" and "Fill up in the guilt of your father" and "How can you escape punishment?"

How does anyone testify against himself simply by stating that his father/ancestor did something?

David: Israel's sin at that same time was identical to the sin of previous generations and that is why their behavior was testimony against those former generations of Israelites.

Quote:

Jesus is not talking about the consequences of an act. He is talking about transferring guilt (ie. responsibility - testifying against yourself).

David: The Jews did commit sins during the time of Jesus and afterwards. They also made their own decisions in foolishly rebelling against Rome.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

NOGO · 07-27-2002, 03:19 PM

Quote:

David: Israel's sin at that same time was identical to the sin of previous generations and that is why their behavior was testimony against those former generations of Israelites.

Nice attempt.
Jesus is not talking to all of Israel. Jesus is talking specifically to the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus attacks the Pharisees throughout the Gospels so this should not be a surprise nor an exception.

Look again at Matthew 23

Jesus addresses eight woes to Scribes and Pharisees. This is one of them.

29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30 and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

So the setting is all wrong for your interpretation. The setting is not Jesus talking to all the children of the house of Israel which he always addresses in a kind and loving way. The setting is part of an all out attack on the scribes Pharisees.

"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

According to you Jesus is calling all of Israel serpents, brood of vipers and then tells them that they will all go to hell.

Note the "hell", not the destruction of the nation.

As I said your setting is all wrong.

Quote:

David: The Jews did commit sins during the time of Jesus and afterwards. They also made their own decisions in foolishly rebelling against Rome.

This has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Jesus is talking specifically about the murder of prophets in the past.

'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'

Note
in the days of our fathers - PAST
shedding of blood of the prophets - the sin for which the Pharisees will go to hell.

You cannot simply add other elements so as to find a way out of the problem.

One final thought before I go.
The idea that children must bear to sins of their fathers is not new to the NT. Check this case in the OT.

1 Samuel 15
2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.
3 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"

The attack referred to is in Ex17:8-16
I quote here the last verse.
"The LORD has sworn; the LORD will have war against Amalek from generation to generation."

The key words here are
"I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt".

The massacre described in 1 Samuel 15 is therefore a punishment for the attack which took place 400 years earlier.

David, since you like to talk about morality all the time, I will say this.

The idea that it was fair game to kill children for something that their ancesters did was the MORALITY of the time. It is called a feud. Yahweh sees no problem with this so why should Jesus.

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

NOGO · 07-29-2002, 09:50 AM

David Matthews

After two attempts at whitewashing Matthew 23 perhaps you should simply admit that Jesus had strange morals and really believed that children will be made accountable for things that their parents did.

excreationist · 07-29-2002, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
...Nations and kingdoms can suffer punishment in response to the sins of former generations. The reason why such events occur is because the life cycle of nations and kingdoms is very much longer than the life cycle of individuals/generations.

For example, if the United States continues to amass debt (4+ trillion dollars) and does not make any effort to pay it off, a day will come when the bill will become due. The generation which is alive at that time will suffer dreadful economic consequences though the sin of fiscal irresponsibility was committed by Americans decades before...

Exodus 20:5-6 - "You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations. But I lavish my love on those who love me and obey my commands, even for a thousand generations."

There are also some other Bible passages:
Exodus 34:6-7 - "He passed in front of Moses and said, "I am the LORD, I am the LORD, the merciful and gracious God. I am slow to anger and rich in unfailing love and faithfulness. I show this unfailing love to many thousands by forgiving every kind of sin and rebellion. Even so I do not leave sin unpunished, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations."

So Yahweh is saying that he will personally actively punish people, rather than simply allow the consequences of the parent's actions to affect their descendents in a natural way. If only natural consequences are involved then it isn't really God who is doing the punishing!

NOGO · 07-30-2002, 04:18 PM

David Matthews

Have you given up?

Do you concede the point?

[ July 30, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

David Mathews · 07-30-2002, 06:01 PM

Hello NOGO,

I did not intend to neglect your thread, NOGO. I was busy on several other threads and this was forgotten.

Quote:

Nice attempt.
Jesus is not talking to all of Israel. Jesus is talking specifically to the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus attacks the Pharisees throughout the Gospels so this should not be a surprise nor an exception.

Look again at Matthew 23

Jesus addresses eight woes to Scribes and Pharisees. This is one of them.

29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30 and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

So the setting is all wrong for your interpretation. The setting is not Jesus talking to all the children of the house of Israel which he always addresses in a kind and loving way. The setting is part of an all out attack on the scribes Pharisees.

"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

According to you Jesus is calling all of Israel serpents, brood of vipers and then tells them that they will all go to hell.

Note the "hell", not the destruction of the nation.

As I said your setting is all wrong.

David: I must say that the interpretation of Matthew 23 has been a matter of contention among Christians for more than a thousand years. Beyond doubt, history testifies that Israel rebelled from the Ronman Empire apprimately 68 A.D. and the nation was defeated, Jerusalam was destroyed and the people removed from the land approximately 70 A.D.

Not only is there the prophecy of this event (in Matthew 23), Josephus (a Jewish historian of world renown) recorded the event in explicit detail in his War of the Jews:
<a href="http://www.biblestudytools.net/History/BC/FlaviusJosephus/?book=War_7&chapter=1" target="_blank">War of the Jews: Book 7.1</a>.

The Jews who suffered and died at the hands of the Romans were responsible for their fate because they rebelled from Rome without the resources or manpower sufficient to succeed at war against the Romans.

Quote:

This has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Jesus is talking specifically about the murder of prophets in the past.

'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'

Note
in the days of our fathers - PAST
shedding of blood of the prophets - the sin for which the Pharisees will go to hell.

You cannot simply add other elements so as to find a way out of the problem.

David: This explanation is not a matter of speculation. The sedition of the Jews is a historically attested fact.

Quote:

The idea that children must bear to sins of their fathers is not new to the NT. Check this case in the OT.

1 Samuel 15
2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.
3 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"

The attack referred to is in Ex17:8-16
I quote here the last verse.
"The LORD has sworn; the LORD will have war against Amalek from generation to generation."

The key words here are
"I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt".

The massacre described in 1 Samuel 15 is therefore a punishment for the attack which took place 400 years earlier.

David: I suppose that Amalek had continued to oppose and attack Israel throughout this time leading up to the final war between Israel and Amalek. Amalek at that time was not guiltless by any means.

Quote:

The idea that it was fair game to kill children for something that their ancesters did was the MORALITY of the time. It is called a feud. Yahweh sees no problem with this so why should Jesus.

David: Nations have the right to self-defense, just as people do. For example, the terrorist attack on the United States by Osama & the Al Queda is sufficient just cause for the United States to punish and even exterminate that organization.

War is bloody business and I would prefer to live in a world without war. Perhaps some day that world will come, until then wars will continue.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-30-2002, 06:03 PM

Hello excreationist,

Quote:

Exodus 20:5-6 - "You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations. But I lavish my love on those who love me and obey my commands, even for a thousand generations."

There are also some other Bible passages:
Exodus 34:6-7 - "He passed in front of Moses and said, "I am the LORD, I am the LORD, the merciful and gracious God. I am slow to anger and rich in unfailing love and faithfulness. I show this unfailing love to many thousands by forgiving every kind of sin and rebellion. Even so I do not leave sin unpunished, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations."

So Yahweh is saying that he will personally actively punish people, rather than simply allow the consequences of the parent's actions to affect their descendents in a natural way. If only natural consequences are involved then it isn't really God who is doing the punishing!

David: I disagree with the final sentence. I believe that the natural consequences of evil activity can constitute Divine punishment.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

excreationist · 07-31-2002, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
...I believe that the natural consequences of evil activity can constitute Divine punishment...

Let's say that there was a tribe that believed in spirits but not a supreme being. And let's say they thought up punishments for various crimes (e.g. rape, stealing, etc) and also carried out those punishments. So when that tribe is carrying out the punishment, is the Christian God actively punishing that sinner?

07-30-2002, 04:18 PM	#27
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	David Matthews Have you given up? Do you concede the point? [ July 30, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

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07-26-2002, 04:56 PM	#22
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	David Matthews Your silence is defening.

07-29-2002, 09:50 AM	#25
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	David Matthews After two attempts at whitewashing Matthew 23 perhaps you should simply admit that Jesus had strange morals and really believed that children will be made accountable for things that their parents did.

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