Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Gregg · 03-10-2003, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
If you look seriously at the book of Exodus you will see that the hardening of Pharaoh's heart did not begin with God, it began with Pharaoh himself, who made a decisiont to harden his own heart.

After Pharaoh decided to do that, God allowed his heart to continue to be hardened.

OK, I just whipped out Exodus and read it "seriously," as opposed to reading it while dancing a jig and laughing hysterically as I usually do.

My conclusion? You are reading into the text things that are simply not there. Seeing what you want to see, instead of just reading the plain words of the Bible.

God makes his intentions absolutely clear in 7:1-5. He will deliberately harden Pharaoh's heart so Pharaoh won't let the Hebrews go right away. He doesn't want Pharaoh to give in quick--he wants to toy with him for a while, show him who's boss. Pharaoh has absolutely no control over what's going on.

That's what the Good Book says. Why do you keep pretending it says something else?

Quote:

One has to remember what this confrontation between Pharaoh and Yahweh was all about. In Egypt the Pharaoh was considered a "god". When he refused to bow to the one true God, God unleashed a torrent of plagues, all of them directed at one or another of Egypt's false gods. This was a showdown in the desert - and God was not going to let any other false god get the glory that belonged only to him.

Kevin

Oooh yeah! You go, God! Show that bad ol' Pharaoh and his bad ol' false gods! Yeah, so, a bunch of innocent Egyptian men, women, and children gotta die horrible deaths in the process, but them's the breaks!

You da man, God! To you be da glory! You baddah than Pharaoh!

Gregg

spurly · 03-10-2003, 06:50 PM

Gregg,

The solution to this dilemma you have proposed is really very simple. God, in his foreknowledge, saw that Pharaoh was going to harden his heart and was not going to let the people go.

So God said, "if that is the case, I will help him make it even harder".

Here's the progression. Pharaoh hardens his heart. Pharaoh refuses to repent. God uses someone whose heart is hardened for his glory.

Kevin

Hayden · 03-10-2003, 06:58 PM

Quote:

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 4:21

Um, that's pretty unambiguous. Can you provide a scriptural basis for your reasoning?

HR

spurly · 03-10-2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hayden
Um, that's pretty unambiguous. Can you provide a scriptural basis for your reasoning?

HR

Yes I can. The passage I was referring to was Exodus 8:15. "When Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen..."

Also in Exodus 7:14 we are told that Pharaoh's heart was unyielding. Not that God made it unyielding. Pharaoh hardened his own heart against God - God used him anyway.

Kevin

Hayden · 03-10-2003, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
Yes I can. The passage I was referring to was Exodus 8:15. "When Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen..."

Also in Exodus 7:14 we are told that Pharaoh's heart was unyielding. Not that God made it unyielding. Pharaoh hardened his own heart against God - God used him anyway.

Both of these occur after Exodus 4:21. If I tell you I'm going to harden something, and then you later find that it's hard, is it not reasonable to assume that I have in fact hardened it (assuming I have the power to do so)?

I suspect you're explaining away the bits you don't like in order to make your beliefs a little more palatable.

HR

spurly · 03-10-2003, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hayden
Both of these occur after Exodus 4:21. If I tell you I'm going to harden something, and then you later find that it's hard, is it not reasonable to assume that I have in fact hardened it (assuming I have the power to do so)?

I suspect you're explaining away the bits you don't like in order to make your beliefs a little more palatable.

HR

Yes, they both occur after Exodus 4:21. However I present to you that God's statement in Exodus 4:21 was based on his foreknowledge. He knew what Pharaoh would do - harden his heart and not repent - and God used him anyway to show his glory.

God knew it was going to happen. Pharaoh hardened his heart. God allowed it to happen, and maybe even helped make it harder by sending more and more judgments on Egypt's Gods in the form of plagues.

Kevin

spurly · 03-10-2003, 08:21 PM

Oh, by the way, just because someone knows something is going to happen does not mean they caused it. I know the sun will come up in the morning - however I will not cause it. It is the same with the foreknowldege of God.

Kevin

Philosoft · 03-10-2003, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
Oh, by the way, just because someone knows something is going to happen does not mean they caused it. I know the sun will come up in the morning - however I will not cause it. It is the same with the foreknowldege of God.

Well, no, it isn't the same. If God's foreknowledge existed some time prior to his creating the universe (don't go God-outside-of-time on me, I'm warning you

), and if God creates by acts of will, then any being God creates has no choice but to do the actions God has foreseen. If the being in question did not therefore cause her own action by free choice, the only options are a) the action is not caused; b) the action is caused by an external source.

Hayden · 03-10-2003, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
Oh, by the way, just because someone knows something is going to happen does not mean they caused it. I know the sun will come up in the morning - however I will not cause it. It is the same with the foreknowldege of God.

Indeed. However the Bible says, in at least nine places, that God harden's Pharoah's heart. In Exodus 4:21, 7:3, 7:13, 9:12, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:4, 14:8, in fact. It does not say that God saw that it was hardened, or would be hardened; it says that God hardened it. Is this not obvious enough?

I'm sure this has been done to death before...

HR

Debbie T · 03-11-2003, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
If you look seriously at the book of Exodus you will see that the hardening of Pharaoh's heart did not begin with God, it began with Pharaoh himself, who made a decisiont to harden his own heart.

After Pharaoh decided to do that, God allowed his heart to continue to be hardened.
Kevin

Please point out the verses that say this as I do not see any passages that say it began with the Pharaoh himself. It appears that you are adding to this story something that is not there.

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03-10-2003, 06:50 PM	#22
spurly Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 710	Gregg, The solution to this dilemma you have proposed is really very simple. God, in his foreknowledge, saw that Pharaoh was going to harden his heart and was not going to let the people go. So God said, "if that is the case, I will help him make it even harder". Here's the progression. Pharaoh hardens his heart. Pharaoh refuses to repent. God uses someone whose heart is hardened for his glory. Kevin

03-10-2003, 08:21 PM	#27
spurly Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 710	Oh, by the way, just because someone knows something is going to happen does not mean they caused it. I know the sun will come up in the morning - however I will not cause it. It is the same with the foreknowldege of God. Kevin

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