Carolina

I am an atheist as well and I was just trying to explain that the idea of god and its existence is illogical.

Maybe that's why Xnyt's god is also illogical...

7thangel

Spencer,
I, for one, believe that man has no free will, and that only God has such free will. Different to common Christian beliefs. And most probably, I am the only one who have such belief. But for anyone to generalize a statement, as I underlined and bold faced above, is "higly unreasonable." And unfortunately, as most Christians do, some atheists themselves pick and choose what they want to believe. And worst, they use it as a tool against all professing Christians just to win the argument about God's existence.

Please bear with me for this off topic subject, I just want to clarify, and at the same time, inform some atheists to take note and give consideration regarding this matter.

Sincerely,
NILO

Spenser

I think you are missing his point. The argument is not meant to disprove what every Xian defines as God because obviously people have different interpretations. He has taken the definition of God as seen by the majority of Xians, especially scholars, and disproved that specific definition.

In order to argue for or against God you must have some sort of definition and if yours is different then he obviously has not disproved your God. However, the multitude of definitions for what seems to be referred to as the same God also calls God's existence into question, wouldn't you think? A lot of these arguments may come down to semantics, but when given a clear definition of 'God' you'll find that most people on this site have little problem refuting it.

Obviously the more apologetic Gods, the more far removed from scientific or logical observation become difficult or even impossible to disprove but generally become rather ridiculous. Talk of multiple other dimensions that no one can really have any concept of, or existing outside of time yet have a thought process where one thought follows the next just become nonsense.

Now I'm off to find me lucky charms...

ChrisW

you are not alone, calvinism is basically what you are speaking of.

Eric H

Hello Spenser,


quote
However, the multitude of definitions for what seems to be referred to as the same God also calls God's existence into question, wouldn't you think? A lot of these arguments may come down to semantics, but when given a clear definition of 'God' you'll find that most people on this site have little problem refuting it.
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The trouble with winning arguments is that you still end up with no proof as to whether God the creator exists or not.

This applies to me, you win some, you loose some but still have no proof, and I believe that God exists.

Anyway carrying on in the endless debate on free will:


If there is a God, and if he was to give us free will it would have to be for a purpose,

Free will never seems quite right when we equate it to things like chess games, choosing which clothes to wear, or choosing what to eat and any other task.

If we are given free will for the purpose of having relationships with other people, then we need to be free to choose for our selves.

Put six people in a room and they will start talking about any topic, some may be friends, strangers, antagonists, colleagues, lovers.
People could be encouraging, rude insulting, flirt, helpful, the conversation could go in many directions. At the end two may pair up, someone may have fallen out with another, any number of possible out comes may occur.

Multiply six people times a billion to get the earths population, and if there is a puppet master pulling all our strings in day to day life, then it all seems like a pointless dull exercise for both God and humanity.

For life to have any meaning I believe that we have to be free from God, then I believe that it is up to us to choose what to do.

But I could be wrong!!!!

Peace

Eric

Spenser

Eric,

If we are free from God, in order to live our lives, then we 'do' have free will to do whatever we choose, then doesn't that say that God doesn't know what we will do? And therefore doesn't know the future taking away from him being Omnimax?

Eric H

Quote Spenser
If we are free from God, in order to live our lives, then we 'do' have free will to do whatever we choose, then doesn't that say that God doesn't know what we will do? And therefore doesn't know the future taking away from him being Omnimax?
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Hello Spenser,
In truth I don’t know, although I do believe that we have free will and we are not under the control of a God; I cannot prove any of this.

My way of thinking is that God either exists totally, or there is no God at all, if God exists totally, it seems we can only try and define what he is, the clues seem confusing.

You can always find questions, which show that God can’t do everything;

If God can do everything, can he make a rock so heavy that he can’t lift it.

He is limited to being able to do only one of these things, so God can’t do everything. The conclusion is that there cannot be an all powerful God.

The truth of the matter is that God should only be able do all things that are logically possible.

I think that this is in the same way as saying that if God is omnimax then he can’t give us free will. Its one or the other.

Peace

Eric

7thangel

That is my point.

Non sequitor, God's existence is independent to everyone's definition. Except if you are speaking subjectively on his/her God.

Quote:

A lot of these arguments may come down to semantics, but when given a clear definition of 'God' you'll find that most people on this site have little problem refuting it.

I do agree that some, or most, definitions layed by common Christians are easily refuted, of which, I do not adhere to such definitions of God. And for that I appealed for clarification.

Quote:

Obviously the more apologetic Gods, the more far removed from scientific or logical observation become difficult or even impossible to disprove but generally become rather ridiculous. Talk of multiple other dimensions that no one can really have any concept of, or existing outside of time yet have a thought process where one thought follows the next just become nonsense.

Yes, and I do understand why some atheists are well hardened on their position. But I guess, why not really focus on other theists without associating other theist's nonsensical beliefs.

Quote:

Now I'm off to find me lucky charms...

Happy hunting!!!

7thangel

I haven't heard a calvinist believing on the non-existence of man's free will; the reason I do not consider myself a calvinist.

ChrisW

predestination is the term used, but it's basically the same as saying humans do not have free will. basically everything you do is predestined by god, so you don't really have a choice. i think that fits well with your theory.

(i may be wrong, i'm not a calvanist )