Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nuwanda · 08-25-2007, 10:00 AM

In response to a request by David B. I will elaborate on my personal life changing experience with God, at the risk that it will never make it passed the moderators who usually oust anything that smacks of evangelism.

I'll save the long end of the story involving all the levels that led up to my final conversion and just say that when I actually heard the authentic gospel for the first time it was a confirmation of everything within me. I performed the usual ritual of praying to invite Christ into my life, but what followed was the seal of the deal.

After committing my life to Christ I followed it up with praying with a couple from our church whom I didn't know from Adam and vice versa. During the prayer this couple received information about me that they could not have known, stuff that no one knew about me, much less complete strangers. It was a confirmation for me that God was intimately aware of me and present. They went on to prophesy things that have been confirmed throughout the last 16 years.

Besides this one experience I've had literally unending spiritual encounters with prophecy, physical healings such as seeing blind eyes open, cancers shriveling, a broken arm made whole, and untold answered prayers and constant intellectual inquiry (that's why I dig IIDB). These are not the "reason" why I believe in the Christ, but they are signs and confirmations His nature.

Like most theists, I can't point to one or two things that "prove" God's existance - for me everything witnesses to Him just as for the atheist everything witness against Him.

Now, David B. and whoever else, you may deconstruct my testimony and show me and those reading why and how I have been deceived by believing as opposed to why disbelieving is not the true trait of deception.

Cheers.

Biff the unclean · 08-25-2007, 10:17 AM

There is nothing here to deconstruct. Just a vague non-story in which nothing specific happens mixed with a bunch of uncheckable half claims. Same crap that has given gypsy fortune tellers such a poor reputation.

David B · 08-25-2007, 11:06 AM

Well, Nuwanda, without a tape recording or accurate transcript made at the time, it is hard to make an overwhelming case.

You say 'During the prayer this couple received information about me that they could not have known, stuff that no one knew about me, much less complete strangers.'

You often hear that sort of testimony about people who are (alleged in all cases) astrologers, clairvoyants, ethical mentalists who make it clear that they are using psychology or other trickery.

Among the methods used are cold reading http://skepdic.com/coldread.html
hot reading http://skepdic.com/hotreading.html, using cues from speech patterns, clothing etc, and using generalities that apply to anyone.

Please note that evangelists have been caught out on the lies that hot reading demands, as is made clear in the link. Cold readers are often unaware that that is what they are doing.

Further note that there have been experiments made where people of different star signs are given the same reading, and are convinced that the reading fits them, confirming a belief in astrology. What it does show is that lots of generalities apply to just about everyone. As theis link demonstrates.

http://skepdic.com/subjectivevalidation.html

You also say 'Besides this one experience I've had literally unending spiritual encounters with prophecy, physical healings such as seeing blind eyes open, cancers shriveling, a broken arm made whole'

Do you have any that can be substantiated?

Are you aware that people like Benny Hinn and Peter Popoff are not above using shills?

Are you further aware that in highly charged emotional settings, where there is a lot of suggestion and positive reinforcement goes on, people do sometimes have a powerful experience of seemingly being cured, which doesn't last.

As this link shows http://skepdic.com/faithhealing.html

Do you have anything verifiable?

It might be helpful, too, if you were to tell us what church or organisation you believe you have seen these alleged miracles in. Perhaps it is well known.

I remain interested in the experiences that led you to the point you describe in this post.

I'm working on an account of my experiences, which I will post here and in other places when it is ready.

Here is another link

http://skepdic.com/faithhealing.html

Thanks for your post

David B

Biff the unclean · 08-25-2007, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

Well, Nuwanda, without a tape recording or accurate transcript made at the time, it is hard to make an overwhelming case.

I can’t help but notice that the magical confirmation events occurred “After committing (his) life to Christ,” instead of the more scrupulous “before commitment.” This ‘cart before the horse’ silliness is the root of the word “pre•posterous.”

Nuwanda · 08-25-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

Well, Nuwanda, without a tape recording or accurate transcript made at the time, it is hard to make an overwhelming case.

You say 'During the prayer this couple received information about me that they could not have known, stuff that no one knew about me, much less complete strangers.'

You often hear that sort of testimony about people who are (alleged in all cases) astrologers, clairvoyants, ethical mentalists who make it clear that they are using psychology or other trickery.

Among the methods used are cold reading http://skepdic.com/coldread.html
hot reading http://skepdic.com/hotreading.html, using cues from speech patterns, clothing etc, and using generalities that apply to anyone.

Please note that evangelists have been caught out on the lies that hot reading demands, as is made clear in the link. Cold readers are often unaware that that is what they are doing.

Further note that there have been experiments made where people of different star signs are given the same reading, and are convinced that the reading fits them, confirming a belief in astrology. What it does show is that lots of generalities apply to just about everyone. As theis link demonstrates.

http://skepdic.com/subjectivevalidation.html

You also say 'Besides this one experience I've had literally unending spiritual encounters with prophecy, physical healings such as seeing blind eyes open, cancers shriveling, a broken arm made whole'

Do you have any that can be substantiated?

Are you aware that people like Benny Hinn and Peter Popoff are not above using shills?

Are you further aware that in highly charged emotional settings, where there is a lot of suggestion and positive reinforcement goes on, people do sometimes have a powerful experience of seemingly being cured, which doesn't last.

As this link shows http://skepdic.com/faithhealing.html

Do you have anything verifiable?

It might be helpful, too, if you were to tell us what church or organisation you believe you have seen these alleged miracles in. Perhaps it is well known.

I remain interested in the experiences that led you to the point you describe in this post.

I'm working on an account of my experiences, which I will post here and in other places when it is ready.

Here is another link

http://skepdic.com/faithhealing.html

Thanks for your post

David B

One can always make the case that prophesy is the result of something besides an encounter with God. But because there are accounts of such things does that condemn every account to that of trickery? If God is real, and He really does speak with His people how would you propose He did so in a way that was undeniably authentic? "Undeniably" being the key word. Not possible.

As far as the miracles I've seen, majority occured on various missions around the world, some at a local church here in Phoenix, but none of which you will find in a peer reviewed article. What would it matter if it did make it to a journal, the journal would become a laughing stock and never again allowed in serious academic forums.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, but those of us who've been there could care less.

David B · 08-25-2007, 02:22 PM

[QUOTE=Nuwanda;4733578]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

Well, Nuwanda, without a tape recording or accurate transcript made at the time, it is hard to make an overwhelming case.

You say 'During the prayer this couple received information about me that they could not have known, stuff that no one knew about me, much less complete strangers.'

You often hear that sort of testimony about people who are (alleged in all cases) astrologers, clairvoyants, ethical mentalists who make it clear that they are using psychology or other trickery.

Among the methods used are cold reading http://skepdic.com/coldread.html
hot reading http://skepdic.com/hotreading.html, using cues from speech patterns, clothing etc, and using generalities that apply to anyone.

Please note that evangelists have been caught out on the lies that hot reading demands, as is made clear in the link. Cold readers are often unaware that that is what they are doing.

Further note that there have been experiments made where people of different star signs are given the same reading, and are convinced that the reading fits them, confirming a belief in astrology. What it does show is that lots of generalities apply to just about everyone. As theis link demonstrates.

http://skepdic.com/subjectivevalidation.html

You also say 'Besides this one experience I've had literally unending spiritual encounters with prophecy, physical healings such as seeing blind eyes open, cancers shriveling, a broken arm made whole'

Do you have any that can be substantiated?

Are you aware that people like Benny Hinn and Peter Popoff are not above using shills?

Are you further aware that in highly charged emotional settings, where there is a lot of suggestion and positive reinforcement goes on, people do sometimes have a powerful experience of seemingly being cured, which doesn't last.

As this link shows http://skepdic.com/faithhealing.html

Do you have anything verifiable?

It might be helpful, too, if you were to tell us what church or organisation you believe you have seen these alleged miracles in. Perhaps it is well known.

I remain interested in the experiences that led you to the point you describe in this post.

I'm working on an account of my experiences, which I will post here and in other places when it is ready.

Here is another link

http://skepdic.com/faithhealing.html

Thanks for your post

David B

Quote:

One can always make the case that prophesy is the result of something besides an encounter with God. But because there are accounts of such things does that condemn every account to that of trickery?

While there are demonstrated examples of trickery, I did not mean to imply that every case is a result of trickery.

There is also error, and coincidence.

Many errors can be put down to the hidden persuaders.

http://skepdic.com/hiddenpersuaders.html

Quote:

If God is real, and He really does speak with His people how would you propose He did so in a way that was undeniably authentic? "Undeniably" being the key word. Not possible.

For a start, I'd like to see one theistic tradition, and one only, claiming the sort of prophesy and miracle you claim. That is not the case - lots of similar claims come from mutually contradictory traditions, as far as I can see.

Secondly - I'd like to see the alleged claims confirmed under lab conditions, with a protocol designed by someone skilled at eliminating possibilities of error or fraud. And then confirmed by independent research.

Quote:

As far as the miracles I've seen, majority occured on various missions around the world, some at a local church here in Phoenix

I'd just remind you that many people are convinced, wrongly, by the claims of Popoff, Hinn, Browne etc.

Quote:

but none of which you will find in a peer reviewed article. What would it matter if it did make it to a journal, the journal would become a laughing stock and never again allowed in serious academic forums.

Not if the evidence was good enough! There have, for instance, been papers published on the power of prayer, which have found positive results, if small ones. Papers on remote sensing and stuff, too. But in all cases I know the subsequent follow up has not confirmed the results, and, in many cases, spotted methodological errors in the first paper.

The journals involved remain unscathed.

Quote:

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, but those of us who've been there could care less.

I'm well aware, from my own experience, of the seductiveness of experiences that appear to support a supernatural world view. As I said in the other thread, from which this one sprung.

It is a mistake not to care, though, since reality checks are really a good idea, in view of the demonstrable cases where people are persuaded by fraud or error.

People who are quite clever are particularly vulnerable, IMV - in some cases people who are very clever - because they see themselves as too clever to be fooled, mistaken or misled by the power of suggestion and/or positive reinforcement.

Conan Doyle's beliefs in spiritualism and fairies would be good cases in point. As would be those scientists who were fooled by Uri Geller.

David B (hopes you have read his links)

aa5874 · 08-25-2007, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

Well, Nuwanda, without a tape recording or accurate transcript made at the time, it is hard to make an overwhelming case.

You say 'During the prayer this couple received information about me that they could not have known, stuff that no one knew about me, much less complete strangers.'

You often hear that sort of testimony about people who are (alleged in all cases) astrologers, clairvoyants, ethical mentalists who make it clear that they are using psychology or other trickery.

Among the methods used are cold reading http://skepdic.com/coldread.html
hot reading http://skepdic.com/hotreading.html, using cues from speech patterns, clothing etc, and using generalities that apply to anyone.

Please note that evangelists have been caught out on the lies that hot reading demands, as is made clear in the link. Cold readers are often unaware that that is what they are doing.

Further note that there have been experiments made where people of different star signs are given the same reading, and are convinced that the reading fits them, confirming a belief in astrology. What it does show is that lots of generalities apply to just about everyone. As theis link demonstrates.

http://skepdic.com/subjectivevalidation.html

You also say 'Besides this one experience I've had literally unending spiritual encounters with prophecy, physical healings such as seeing blind eyes open, cancers shriveling, a broken arm made whole'

Do you have any that can be substantiated?

Are you aware that people like Benny Hinn and Peter Popoff are not above using shills?

Are you further aware that in highly charged emotional settings, where there is a lot of suggestion and positive reinforcement goes on, people do sometimes have a powerful experience of seemingly being cured, which doesn't last.

As this link shows http://skepdic.com/faithhealing.html

Do you have anything verifiable?

It might be helpful, too, if you were to tell us what church or organisation you believe you have seen these alleged miracles in. Perhaps it is well known.

I remain interested in the experiences that led you to the point you describe in this post.

I'm working on an account of my experiences, which I will post here and in other places when it is ready.

Here is another link

http://skepdic.com/faithhealing.html

Thanks for your post

David B

One can always make the case that prophesy is the result of something besides an encounter with God. But because there are accounts of such things does that condemn every account to that of trickery? If God is real, and He really does speak with His people how would you propose He did so in a way that was undeniably authentic? "Undeniably" being the key word. Not possible.

As far as the miracles I've seen, majority occured on various missions around the world, some at a local church here in Phoenix, but none of which you will find in a peer reviewed article. What would it matter if it did make it to a journal, the journal would become a laughing stock and never again allowed in serious academic forums.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, but those of us who've been there could care less.

But, it is claimed that psychics, crystal ball operators and even devil worshippers can tell you things about yourself. Pyschics can even tell you where dead bodies are, when they guess right, according to some reports.

And, if you see what you believe to be a miracle, maybe it was done by the devil, or by some other God. Remember the Exodus, the gods of the magicians are probably still alive and they did a ton of stuff, according to the Bible. And if you read Job, the devil is just as miraculous as well.

If you believe in the supernatural, you will never know what's really going, you'll be lost. It is too complicated.

Zora · 08-25-2007, 07:02 PM

Nuwanda, why on earth would anyone, scientist or layman, want to deny a "miracle" if one truly took place? I am a hard-core atheist. However, if I were presented with irrefutable proof of the existence of a supreme being I would be most interested in at least hearing what he/she/it had to say. I would also be obliged to believe in he/she/it, even if I didn't like the message. There is no benefit to me to deny a supreme being's existence if presented with irrefutable proof of its existence.

"Witnessing" does not qualify as irrefutable proof. Sorry. Voices in your head or non-specific anecdotal stories aren't proof. If your experiences have led you to become a better person, that's good. If your experiences have led you to believe that you are a member of the only enlightened group of human beings, then you'd better have proof.

Nuwanda · 08-25-2007, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zora

Nuwanda, why on earth would anyone, scientist or layman, want to deny a "miracle" if one truly took place?

Because a miracle is the death blow to pure naturalism. Remember, information in no way equals conclusion or concensus. "In knowledge there is no decision; decision, the determinedness and determining characteristic of personalities is first in ergo, in faith. Knowledge is the infinite art of equivocation or the infinite equivocation; at its utmost it means precisely to place contrasting possibilities in equilibrium" (Kierkegaard).

Having a proof of "miracles" will not convince the one who has made up his mind that nature is a closed system, nor will the disproof of miracles convince the theist who has made up his mind that God acts within nature. Decisions are based on belief (faith) and not simply information (if one devotes time in considering what "information" or "knowledge" really is). Of course this is just my opinion based on the given information as will be your response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zora

"Witnessing" does not qualify as irrefutable proof.

Who said it did?

Nuwanda · 08-25-2007, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

David B (hopes you have read his links)

I read them.

Coldread - nope, the ones who prophesyed to me gave extremely specific information.

Hotread - nope, absolutely no one knew me, I didn't fill out any papers, and I still know the couple to this day. We are great friends.

Subjective Validation - nope, I was reluctant from the start to pray with anyone after my conversion to Christ. I just wanted to go home and be with my own thoughts. I had just come from Mormonism, I didn't trust anyone!

Faith Healing - The things I vaguely wrote of were things I witnessed. I saw a blind man healed, before my eyes, able to see again. I've seen tumors that were prayed for on one night and the next day completely shrivelled. I myself was instantanously healed of what I believe was a hernia (I have no medical records to prove it) after I layed hands on myself and prayed the prayer of faith. I went from doubled over on the ground after lifting weights with severe pain to standing up and walking, completely normal immediately after praying (my wife was the only witness). Some miracles I've heard of from others like my brother in law who, while on a mission in the Siberia, prayed for a woman who had a broken arm in a sling and was immediately healed before his eyes. My pastor's son was dying of lukemia and was healed, another pastor's son was clinically dead in the hospital and was raised to life after the prayer of faith (actually, that pastor's name is Andrew Wommack, now a popular minister and long time personal friend). I could go on and on but you've already quit reading.

Again, not trying to convince anyone of my experiences. You can take them or leave them, God remains the same.

08-25-2007, 10:00 AM	#1
Nuwanda Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Phoenix Posts: 412	Experience with God: a response to David B. In response to a request by David B. I will elaborate on my personal life changing experience with God, at the risk that it will never make it passed the moderators who usually oust anything that smacks of evangelism. I'll save the long end of the story involving all the levels that led up to my final conversion and just say that when I actually heard the authentic gospel for the first time it was a confirmation of everything within me. I performed the usual ritual of praying to invite Christ into my life, but what followed was the seal of the deal. After committing my life to Christ I followed it up with praying with a couple from our church whom I didn't know from Adam and vice versa. During the prayer this couple received information about me that they could not have known, stuff that no one knew about me, much less complete strangers. It was a confirmation for me that God was intimately aware of me and present. They went on to prophesy things that have been confirmed throughout the last 16 years. Besides this one experience I've had literally unending spiritual encounters with prophecy, physical healings such as seeing blind eyes open, cancers shriveling, a broken arm made whole, and untold answered prayers and constant intellectual inquiry (that's why I dig IIDB). These are not the "reason" why I believe in the Christ, but they are signs and confirmations His nature. Like most theists, I can't point to one or two things that "prove" God's existance - for me everything witnesses to Him just as for the atheist everything witness against Him. Now, David B. and whoever else, you may deconstruct my testimony and show me and those reading why and how I have been deceived by believing as opposed to why disbelieving is not the true trait of deception. Cheers.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-25-2007, 10:17 AM	#2
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	There is nothing here to deconstruct. Just a vague non-story in which nothing specific happens mixed with a bunch of uncheckable half claims. Same crap that has given gypsy fortune tellers such a poor reputation.

08-25-2007, 11:06 AM	#3
David B Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Wales Posts: 11,620	Well, Nuwanda, without a tape recording or accurate transcript made at the time, it is hard to make an overwhelming case. You say 'During the prayer this couple received information about me that they could not have known, stuff that no one knew about me, much less complete strangers.' You often hear that sort of testimony about people who are (alleged in all cases) astrologers, clairvoyants, ethical mentalists who make it clear that they are using psychology or other trickery. Among the methods used are cold reading http://skepdic.com/coldread.html hot reading http://skepdic.com/hotreading.html, using cues from speech patterns, clothing etc, and using generalities that apply to anyone. Please note that evangelists have been caught out on the lies that hot reading demands, as is made clear in the link. Cold readers are often unaware that that is what they are doing. Further note that there have been experiments made where people of different star signs are given the same reading, and are convinced that the reading fits them, confirming a belief in astrology. What it does show is that lots of generalities apply to just about everyone. As theis link demonstrates. http://skepdic.com/subjectivevalidation.html You also say 'Besides this one experience I've had literally unending spiritual encounters with prophecy, physical healings such as seeing blind eyes open, cancers shriveling, a broken arm made whole' Do you have any that can be substantiated? Are you aware that people like Benny Hinn and Peter Popoff are not above using shills? Are you further aware that in highly charged emotional settings, where there is a lot of suggestion and positive reinforcement goes on, people do sometimes have a powerful experience of seemingly being cured, which doesn't last. As this link shows http://skepdic.com/faithhealing.html Do you have anything verifiable? It might be helpful, too, if you were to tell us what church or organisation you believe you have seen these alleged miracles in. Perhaps it is well known. I remain interested in the experiences that led you to the point you describe in this post. I'm working on an account of my experiences, which I will post here and in other places when it is ready. Here is another link http://skepdic.com/faithhealing.html Thanks for your post David B

08-25-2007, 07:02 PM	#8
Zora Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Missouri Posts: 571	Nuwanda, why on earth would anyone, scientist or layman, want to deny a "miracle" if one truly took place? I am a hard-core atheist. However, if I were presented with irrefutable proof of the existence of a supreme being I would be most interested in at least hearing what he/she/it had to say. I would also be obliged to believe in he/she/it, even if I didn't like the message. There is no benefit to me to deny a supreme being's existence if presented with irrefutable proof of its existence. "Witnessing" does not qualify as irrefutable proof. Sorry. Voices in your head or non-specific anecdotal stories aren't proof. If your experiences have led you to become a better person, that's good. If your experiences have led you to believe that you are a member of the only enlightened group of human beings, then you'd better have proof.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.