Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Biff the unclean · 03-23-2003, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
My apology, I was not clear enough. I am speaking of the like challenges that Baloo had in his post. But of the doctrines of each theists have, I guess you are more than welcome to challenge them.

My apologies folks.

Since Baloo is challenging you to prove that there even is a God. And since the existence of that God is the very bases of all your doctrines...can we then assume that since you cannot meet Baloo's challenge you will stop making your claims?

Celsus · 03-23-2003, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
My apology, I was not clear enough. I am speaking of the like challenges that Baloo had in his post. But of the doctrines of each theists have, I guess you are more than welcome to challenge them.

My apologies folks.

No problems. So will you take my challenge? Either former or latter will do.

Joel

happyboy · 03-23-2003, 01:14 PM

roflmfao wow! let me get this right, 7thangel: we shouldn't challenge theist beliefs, because they have theist beliefs?

man, theist arguments have really gone downhill since i was last here.

Slavik91 · 03-23-2003, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by happyboy
man, theist arguments have really gone downhill since i was last here.

Were they ever good?

happyboy · 03-23-2003, 02:45 PM

slavik, i remember some really twisted theistic arguments when i first came here. if this nonsense is what the theists on this board have sunk to, then i despair for the world.....

a very sad happyboy

Fiach · 03-23-2003, 05:10 PM

All of these theist arguments are based on the Christian Trinitarian and very Anthropomorphic God. As an atheist, I do not find any reason to believe in any god of any discription.

I find the Judeo-Christian god the easiest of all of the Gods to debunk. He is a giant human. He has the worst human vices, that I have summarised before: jealousy, narcissism, anger, hate, vindictiveness with cruelty, indifference to suffering, temper tantrums that take on the shape of genocidal rage attacks. None of these were done by an invisible, intangible, inaudible, improbable god but likely done by God's followers or in some cases (Noah's Flood) simply lies.

Is God the Anthropomorphic one of Judeo-Islamic-Christianity, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism, Greek Olympic Paganism, Roman Paganism, Celtic Paganism, and Norse Paganism? All are defenceless against the same argument.

The Anthropomorphic God (choose your favourite) cannot be omnipotent and omnibenevolent. He cannot be omnipotent and merciful. He cannot be just if the Bible is inerrant. He is internally inconsistent. He cannot create a boulder too heavy for him to lift. He cannot create a square circle, or a 4 sided triangle.

If God is defined as the Deistic one, who somehow, created the universe but did no more. This god protected himself from debunkiing by not giving revelation, not pretending to perform magic, etc. In a sense this god cannot be disproven like the insane Anthropomorphic gods who are projections of human psychopathology. All we can say is that he is unnecessary as an explanation for creation. It very well may be that the universe popped into time-space by purely natural processes. And a god hypothesis is made but not necessary without some evidence. Honesty is to say that we don't know the cause of the Big Bang.

Fiach

7thangel · 03-23-2003, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Since Baloo is challenging you to prove that there even is a God. And since the existence of that God is the very bases of all your doctrines...can we then assume that since you cannot meet Baloo's challenge you will stop making your claims?

Baloo's challenge was not met "because" it actually does not conform to our beliefs. It is irrational for us to accept such challenge because baloo is not intending to obey those whom he is challenging. Also, if he do not have a rational grasp of the faith of theists, it is not worth proving the existence because he will not have peace anyway. Even if I accept the challenge, and would have guessed the right number, if he will not have peace because of ignorance, or being convinced that such theist's concept of God is irrational then I still lose because the intention of proving God is that man can have peace.

Am I now clear?

sourdough · 03-23-2003, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
I just want to clarify that God wants us to be convinced intellectually and emotionally. Not physically, because we preach an invisible God. Even if the dead be raised, if we do not have understanding of His godhead, we will surely have no peace within ourselves, emotionally and intellectually.

you dont make any sense,but then,no theists do!

btw,being an atheist,I can honestly say,in bad or good times,I have been at peace always,and never had any need for some imaginary skydady.
I believe that when you need a helping hand you will find one at the end of your arm

Quote:

We can sense His existence intellectually, by understanding the power that he exerted, and exerting, on the prophesies fulfilled, and being fulfilled. .

there was never any fulfiled prophecies,should you happen to know the future,there's million bucks waiting for you'here;
www.randi.org

Angrillori · 03-23-2003, 08:42 PM

Alright, I copied and pasted this from another thread where I originally wrote it, but I think it applies more here.

Why should god follow our test? Because it is his (universal you always say) standard. He previously set for us what the physical test for a diety's existance is. Look:

Stangely enough, there was a time when people had turned away from god to other gods. So, god's prophet 'called the other gods out' so to speak. Read:

Quote:

1 Kings 18:18-40

"I have not made trouble for Israel," Elijah replied.(to Ahab who had just called Elijah a troubler) "But you and your father's family have. You have abandoned the LORD's commands and have followed the Baals.

Interesting....following another god, not believing in god...seems all the Gideon apologetics need to find another word track since this time god IS making signs for the unbelievers...

Quote:

Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table."
So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him."

In our day, if god is god then follow him, if there is no god, don't. Seems fair enough.

Quote:

But the people said nothing.
Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the LORD's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets.

Well seems the tables have turned eh? Seems the god-ites outnumber the atheist prophets eh?

Quote:

Get two bulls for us. Let them choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD . The god who answers by fire-he is God."

But, since we atheists don't believe in god, instead of prayers for fire, we get gasoline and matches. Whoever gets fire wins right? You get your god to make it, I get mine.

Quote:

Then all the people said, "What you say is good."
Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire." So they took the bull given them and prepared it.
Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "O Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.
At noon Elijah began to taunt them. "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened."

Would Elijah be an atheist today? Surely god seems to be deep in thought, busy, traveling, or sleeping!

Quote:

So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

No answer huh? No miracle huh? Is that the biblical test for the non-existance of a particular diety? Then we've got it easy!

Quote:

Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come here to me." They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the LORD , which was in ruins. Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, "Your name shall be Israel." With the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD , and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs of seed. He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, "Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood."
"Do it again," he said, and they did it again.
"Do it a third time," he ordered, and they did it the third time. The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.
At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: "O LORD , God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. Answer me, O LORD , answer me, so these people will know that you, O LORD , are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again."

Well here's our prayer to convert the atheists! Any one of our god-ites care to try it! I've got a big backyard, come by, I'll even have snacks available!

Quote:

Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.
When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The LORD -he is God! The LORD -he is God!"
Then Elijah commanded them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Don't let anyone get away!" They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.

And, if my gasoline fire starts before your god-fire, I promise I won't even round you up and kill you!

Anyways, that's the biblical test for a diety's existance. But don't take my word for it, don't take ANYONE's word for it. Read the bible yourself.

orac · 03-23-2003, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
I just want to clarify that God wants us to be convinced intellectually and emotionally. Not physically, because we preach an invisible God. Even if the dead be raised, if we do not have understanding of His godhead, we will surely have no peace within ourselves, emotionally and intellectually.

This is not a universal christian belief - many christians consider intellect and reason to be satan's trap for us.

However, if you think intellect is good, feel free to provide all the rational logical and intellectual evidence for God's existance that you have available. People keep asking for this, and if you actually have it you could save all our souls by showing us that we were mistaken. Is there a reason you're holding this information back?

We're not after peace within ourselves yet. Just a good reason to believe that there's a God. Once you've managed that, then we can talk about why and how to worship him.

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
I hope you will make the challenge the right way.

You haven't answered yet: what is the right way?

(Important reminder: "believe, and you will know the truth" is not acceptable. The problem is that evidence has to come before the conclusion, not after - too many christians have gotten this wrong, and I don't want you to embarass yourself by making the same mistake.)

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
Maybe God is not an IPU. So do not challenge who believe in IPU's.

Maybe you don't understand the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or you'ld realise that God is an IPU. (I think you're most of the way there - you've already acknowledged that your God, just like Krishna, Kali, and the IPU are invisible non-tangible beings.)

Still, if you're right, feel free to post your proof that the IPU does not exist. If you can't prove that she is made up, then you will be obliged to worship Her because your lack of proof is itself proof of Her existance.

To be fair, I already know that you can not actually do this, because that request contains a blatant logical fallacy. There is no way for you to prove that she doesn't exist, but despite this you still don't seem to be in a hurry to worship. Oddly enough, this is the entire point.

You still expect us to worship your IPU, though.

I'll asume you're bright enough not to try and use the old favourites: appeals to antiquity and popularity can be used to 'prove' that Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism are perfectly valid and truthful religions, but I don't see you advocating them as the truth.

(It's an intellectual exercise, not a claim that the IPU is real. If it makes you more comfortable, substitute Allah for IPU in this post - and either explain why you don't worship Allah, if you can't prove He isn't the real God, or explain why you don't worship Him, if he is. The reason for using the IPU is that it's an amusing parody of real religions - and applicable to all available gods.)

03-23-2003, 05:10 PM	#16
Fiach Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 602	Which God do we challenge? All of these theist arguments are based on the Christian Trinitarian and very Anthropomorphic God. As an atheist, I do not find any reason to believe in any god of any discription. I find the Judeo-Christian god the easiest of all of the Gods to debunk. He is a giant human. He has the worst human vices, that I have summarised before: jealousy, narcissism, anger, hate, vindictiveness with cruelty, indifference to suffering, temper tantrums that take on the shape of genocidal rage attacks. None of these were done by an invisible, intangible, inaudible, improbable god but likely done by God's followers or in some cases (Noah's Flood) simply lies. Is God the Anthropomorphic one of Judeo-Islamic-Christianity, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism, Greek Olympic Paganism, Roman Paganism, Celtic Paganism, and Norse Paganism? All are defenceless against the same argument. The Anthropomorphic God (choose your favourite) cannot be omnipotent and omnibenevolent. He cannot be omnipotent and merciful. He cannot be just if the Bible is inerrant. He is internally inconsistent. He cannot create a boulder too heavy for him to lift. He cannot create a square circle, or a 4 sided triangle. If God is defined as the Deistic one, who somehow, created the universe but did no more. This god protected himself from debunkiing by not giving revelation, not pretending to perform magic, etc. In a sense this god cannot be disproven like the insane Anthropomorphic gods who are projections of human psychopathology. All we can say is that he is unnecessary as an explanation for creation. It very well may be that the universe popped into time-space by purely natural processes. And a god hypothesis is made but not necessary without some evidence. Honesty is to say that we don't know the cause of the Big Bang. Fiach

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03-23-2003, 01:14 PM	#13
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	roflmfao wow! let me get this right, 7thangel: we shouldn't challenge theist beliefs, because they have theist beliefs? man, theist arguments have really gone downhill since i was last here.

03-23-2003, 02:45 PM	#15
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	slavik, i remember some really twisted theistic arguments when i first came here. if this nonsense is what the theists on this board have sunk to, then i despair for the world..... a very sad happyboy

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