Roland98

Oh, Eagel...I really feel for you...Allah forbid you ever get married and have that attitude.

99Percent

But the "process" of confession is bogus and we know it because God is bogus and specially in harmless activitities such as masturbation since no one is being hurt.

The problem that I see is that after repeated instances of this "process" I think catholic priests come into a habit of dismissing the supposed sin of masturbation with confession, without realizing that they are falling into the trap of then committing real sins such as child molesting which they think they can also dismiss with this same "process" of confession.

Sol

Well confession may be bogus, but you have know idea what kind of wild imaginings I could come up with about you, as I casually dine at the local IHOP and observe.

Personally, I'd put more stock in that old saying (perhaps you've heard it) - "Men are born hanging on to it and they never lose their fascination for it". I think that gets closer to the truth.

It's silly to expect a man to take a vow of celibacy. It goes against his very nature, as we are all sexual beings. I think many men with issues regarding their sexuality may actually seek out the priesthood for a variety of reasons (both good and bad). That is not to say that all priests have issues and problems, nor would it be appropriate to assume that they would also bend or use the concept of confession as a "loop-hole" to justify and absolve them repeatedly of their sins - that would be a gross generalizaion and assumption.

Sol

Having been raised with the confessional, I have some real life experience upon which to draw. I've had plenty of time to contemplate the experience. It has formed lasting thoughts and impressions upon me. I'd like to share. And perhaps in doing so it might broaden understanding and provide others with ideas/concepts to ponder when thinking about how moral foundations are formed, how principles are/can be applied by individuals, as well as in broader social context and order. I've already provided a basic idea of the purpose and concept of confessing ones sins. The elementary details of which and arguments as to what constitutes sin, I'm not going to get into. I'm interested in the ideal and how that ideal forms lasting impressions (depending on the person, when and at what age they receive indoctrination and of course how deep a thinker one is). I much admire the Catholic faith regarding the structure and framework they have built and provide (some find great comfort and aid), although I see its many flaws and its failings. I don’t fully understand or have experienced other forms of religion extensively enough to draw comparisons regarding indoctrination or their principles on moral foundation. I’d also like to state that confession is but a small part of the entire structure and concept within the Catholic faith. It works in tandem with all the other elements and is integral to the whole. The experience of confessing ones sins is not considered a light undertaking. There is considerable instruction, preparation and guidance involved.

Things I appreciate about the practice and influence it has had on my life: Empowered me with the idea that I can examine myself. I can think about and contemplate my behavior (past, present and future), I can identify when I think I’ve done something wrong. I can act on that behavior in a variety of ways. I can be accountable (to myself and others) if I so chose. I can direct many of my actions and the course my life takes through the practice of self examination and thinking. I can and do assume responsibility.

Things I did not appreciate or found lacking about the practice: It is subjective and only has meaning if the person truly connects with and feels empowered by the concept of self examination and actually applies it. There is no accountability beyond the individual. It’s patently absurd to confess to another individual who has perceived authority and dominion. Additional social constructs exist and had to be established to preserve order and provide protection because we fail to govern and control ourselves and our behaviors, even with the use of religion.

This is what I have. I view this knowledge as contributing to my ability to be a free thinker. This aided and evolved my thought processes to a point that I could, should and did reject theism for all time. I am sure that I’m not the only person (this would include a percentage of priests) on the planet to have drawn from their experience/s, in what I consider to be positive, life affirming, changing and forward thinking ways. So while some would see this as dangerous and filled with potential “loop-holes” and a trap (means) to commiting real sins for the purpose of dismissal without consequence, it is simply not the case in my experience.

Calzaer

If any of the Abrahamics are right, it's either the Jews or the Catholics. The Protestants have just been winging it for the past couple hundred years. The Catholic church had the guidance of all the apostles, philosophers, and an oral tradition that predated the cannonical Bible (and, in fact, was the litmus test for determining cannon). The Protestants have Calvin, Luther, (both of whom are largely ignored by the vast majority of present-day Protestants anyway) and a completely untenable position on Biblical interpretation, which they tend to ignore when it suits them. They run around willy-nilly saying anything they can pull out of their asses about what the Bible was SUPPOSED to say (and bash the Catholics for subscribing to an established tradition for the same process), with no guidance, no accountability, no cohesiveness, and heavy disagreements on the most trivial bits of scripture. Pascal's Wager breaks down completely in regard to the Protestants; if I convert to the WRONG DENOMINATION, I'm *still* going to hell... and not a single group is any more convincing than any other group. It's a complete crap shoot, whereas the Bible says that "God is not the author of confusion."

Sorry, that little "The Catholics are going to hell" comment got me started. I still have money on the Jews being the most correct out of the Abrahamics, but the Catholics come in a close second. The Protestants are a joke of a corruption of a religion even more than pre-reformation Catholicism was.

99Percent

Sol:I think confession is rather a big part of the entire power structure of the Catholic church. You see, when you confess to a priest (or another higher priest) you are yielding yourself to your most inner thoughts and guilts. This gives a great power, either implicitly or explicitly within the framework of this hierarchy, a power that controls and moves the whole Catholic movement. It is particularly strong within the Opus Dei for example, and this formula has been imitated (with great success alas) in other cults/religions, like Scientology.I think you think it empowers you because you feel a strong sense of relief of letting out your guilty feelings to another person. Unfortunately, as I have said, such relief carries a burden of being in control by the higher priest who listened to your confession. I know, I know, confession is supposed to be secret, but nevertheless, as a human being you know that someone else knows your most inner secrets, and while it feels good to be relieved of the guilt, in the long term it can have a devastating effect in your self confidence, knowing that someone else knows. This is the power that drives the Catholic church (and other cults, like as I said, Scientology), and what I say it is far from being minor as your claim.Yes, and you confirm it yourself. You seem to imply that we individually cannot really ascertain the level of evil of our "sins" and we require a second person to either exonerate or condemn. However, religion itself distorts the supposed evilness of such sins, like masturbation. A "sin" that conveys deep emotion and personal experience, yet it is completely harmless in itself. In fact, orgasm achieved through masturbation is an exaltation of the individual self that completely betrays any sense of belonging to anyone, much less a religious one, which is why it is so condemned by almost all religions, specially the very established ones, like Catholicism.Good for you. You have found the loop hole, but insecure, still-delusional priests still cannot, in complete reason, distinguish between innocous acts like masturbation between really harmful acts like violating the trust of their devotees into submission of pedophilia and rape.

Darwin26

99 i'm not so sure that the abberant behavior of a handful is any kind of leverage to demonstrate "insecure and delusional"... i doubt in fact if you can use the incidious behavior to even construe "loop hole" ...anymore than this behavior is found in every walk of life...
i don't think you can use the pedophillia argument here anymore than you can castigate fathers and mothers for the same.

I feel Sol is genuine in relating his path and process ... the crux of his process was/ is selfawareness and no matter how he came to that and to understanding the pityful pointlessness of a deity is maybe valuable to others caught in the silly cycle of religious confession.

i say BRAVO BRAVO another mind in the light of reason.

Sol

99 Percent, Have you ever been a practicing Roman Catholic?

You don't know what I think. I have not made a single assumption about you, what you think or your experiences. You have made them about me, my thoughts and my experiences. You have manipulated my statements to suit your arguements by breaking down elements of my whole posting.

I don't and have never viewed confession as being a big part of the Catholic experience (even as a very small child). It is a part, no more and no less than any other part. It has no more power or influence. I'm very clear on that. Confession never gave me a strong sense of relief from my feelings of guilt. As a matter of fact confession did little or nothing for me from the very begining. Being a practicing Catholic never made me feel or add to feelings of insecurity or powerlessness.

The experience empowered me to take it to a higher level (very early on). I began to take matters into my own hands. I started taking physcial actions: making apology, making restitution, performing an equal or greater opposite act such as kindess or charity. I started performing mental actions (thought): acknowledging how a behavior made me feel, analyzing it and making decisions to ammend the behavior by not repeating it or finding a better way to address it. Most of all, if I can do this, what do I need confession for and so on.

If there is a so called "loop-hole" there are plenty of us out there walking through it backward just like me (I'm no rocket scientist).

Diadectes

Oh I don't know. Masturbation's an art form in its own right. At its best it takes planning, preparation and a full and honest understanding of the workings of your own erotic imagination. The best sessions require hard work and dedication! Unless of course you reckon it's dirty, in which case I guess it is best to get it over and done with as quickly as possible. After all, you might end up enjoying it, and we can't have that can we?