Deadend

I don't think this hurt the church much, on the contrary, once rulers discovered how Christianity could be used as a political tool to keep their subjects down, there was (practically)no stopping its spread. In the 4th century Christianity was at first tolerated in the Roman Empire, and by the 11th century all of Europe had been Christianised.

The Crusades can be used as an example of the hypocrisy of Christianity, for the reasons you mentioned above, but I don’t think this really fits in this list.

Well, there pretty well known over here (in the Netherlands, and probably all of Europe). In fact, the prospect of the Spanish Inquisition being instituted in the Low Countries, was one of the main reasons for the Dutch Revolt. But overall I think the Inquisition was just a part of the Reformation.

This is the main reason, but not for the reasons you mention, after all the people who were dying were the common people, who themselves were really victims of Christianity. The essential aspect of Protestantism which IMO greatly attributed to the downfall of Christianity, was the fact that they see the bible itself as the greatest authority, rather than the interpretation of the bible by the Church.

Thanks to the invention of the printing press, the bible did become affordable for many (but by no means all) people, and at about the same time the first translations of the bible from Latin into local languages appeared. And many people interpreted the bible differently from the official church, with quite a number of people seeing the bible simply as it is, a collection of myths.

No, you don’t.

I don’t think this is true, I do not think people are any more or any less happy now then they were two centuries ago, certainly life has become a lot easier for us ‘First World-ers,’ but there are still enough things to be unhappy about. Heaven might no longer be a place for us to escape hunger or endless toil, but it has become a place where they would be free from illness, money trouble and an unhappy love life. I do think Industrialisation played a role though.

</strong>

Communism/Socialism. (thanks to Industrialisation ) In Europe anyway, the population of the former communist countries have large percentages of atheists/agnostics. And in the countries that were never communist socialism is a potent political force, in many countries socialists are the largest, or second largest political party.

The Reformation and the Age of Reason/Enlightenment, but they are dependant on each other, I don’t think there would have been an Age of Reason/Enlightenment without the Reformation, and I don’t think the Reformation would have been as influential without the Age of Reason/Enlightenment.

Wyz_sub10

I think I disagree with this comment on three levels.

First, I don't agree that evil destroys itself, at all, much less "by definition".

Second, I'm not sure Christianity is "evil" by definition (although I think it has been a negative think overall).

Third, associated with the second point, when you start using terms like "evil", you're treading on religious ground.

As for the Protestant Reformation, I think it did more to help Christianity than to hinder it. Catholicism has even managed to survive fine after it.

babelfish

I think you may be feeling a little too optimistic. Haven't free-thinkers been predicting the imminent demise of Christianity for several hundred years? It's like our version of the Rapture and the second coming of Christ.

Although I personally find it amazing the things that people will believe that fly in the face of all logic and reason, the sad fact is that there may always be people who keep some sort of Christianity alive. And the more they are shown that their beliefs of laughable and wrong, the harder they will cling to them.

So no, I don't hold out much hope for the majority of Christians coming to their senses any time soon. Maybe never.

I'm definitely not holding my breath.

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: babelfish ]</p>

enemigo

The formation of the Internet Infidels.


richard

The Resistance

I doubt Xianity will ever go away compeltely, but I think it'll lose it's political and social force, which will be good enough for me.

Obviously, there is always the strong possibility that something will replace it. like religious aliens.

The Resistance

I take a very utilitarian point of view on morality. I believe that history points to the idea that evil regimes like Nazi Germany and Stalin/khruschev Russia and Medival Europe can't support themselves and ultimately self-destruct. Same thing with Christianity, as much as Christianity is an annoying force in our lives, I assume everyone here is happy that they aren't dealing with the CHristianity of 50 yrs ago or even 50 yrs before that. Christianity is losing its control (albeit at a rate far to slow for our tastes). BArring a major disaster (nuclear war, severe global warming, Bush JR declaring himself king) that it will continue.

sullster

I have problems with a blanket statement that "evil" regimes or sytems are all destined to self-destruct. Given enough time,is not this the fate of all regimes, good or evil? The Nazi regime may have lasted for a very long time if it had achieved its war aims. Large parts of occupied Europe,(France in particular),went along with Nazi rule. My view here is that, we can't establish your concept as axiomatic with regard to regimes and I certainly can't with regards to religions.

The other problem I have with your self destructing evil sytem idea, is in relation to christianity. I can't stand the dumass religion either, but the fact that it has survived in all its mutant forms down to this day is evidence that your thesis is not provable yet. The religion has been remarkably resiliant and although it would officially deny this, it has always changed with the times.

One last point. Christianity is not loosing control if you look at the religion from a world-wide perspective. True enough, in North America and Europe, christianity is loosing ground to secularism and rationality, but not in other parts of the world. Evangelical christianity and militant catholicism are making huge inroads into Africa,Asia and South America. The populations of these areas are exploding. Pentacostalism is booming in South AMerica in particular.

Sorry, christianity isn't self-destructing, at least around the world, and last Sunday when I drove by a church, the parking lot was full, and I live in a heathen agnostic part of the USA-Massachusetts.

ohwilleke

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Resistance:
<strong>I propose that Christianity will inevitably fade away over time. It just seems natural that no lie can perpetuate itself indefinitely.</strong>

I think this premise is wrong. We still have Jews, Christians, Hindus and Muslims in abundance thousands of years after each of these respective religions was invented. The U.S. has not greatly and consistently secularized between the revolutionary war and today. There has been secularization in Europe, but not in most of the rest of the world.

Latin America is seeing a rebirth of Christianity, as fundamentalist Christianity is reinvigorating what had been a moribund Catholic landscape without competition. Africa is a hotbed of emerging Christianity. Asia is full of Christian influenced new religions.

Secularism in Europe, moreover, is relatively recent, which points to its origins. The first real significant bout of European secularism in my mind was around the time of Voltaire, this gained steam through about Marx and the Victorian era, when many intellectuals, secular and religous alike, were afraid that Christianity was about to collapse. This really stalled for a while until secularism rode piggy back on Communism in the Russian revolution and spread through the world Communist movement, in part, due to the fact that Communism presented a whole way of life to replace the Christian worldview.

In Western Europe, it is my opinion that the current wave of secularism post-dates WWII. Partially, I think this is a product of the rise of right leaning Christian Democratic parties that sullied the image of the church with politics creating an entire left leaning political spectrum disenchanted with religion.

But, more throughly, I think it has to do with the rise of the welfare state and the rise of science. These two forces dramatically reduced the uncertainty that everyday people had about survival in their daily life, and uncertainty that people had about the way the world worked. It also took many traditionally church functions (caring for the poor, education, health care) from the church to a secular government. These things together have greatly reduced the functional need for the church which has lead to secularism.

Religion has thrived where there are a significant number of people who are insecure. Western Europe has reduced that insecurity by and large, and seen a decline in religion. In the U.S. the story is different, since many people are a few steps away from trouble.

Shake

[Monty Python]
Nooo-body expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!
[/Monty Python]

Radcliffe Emerson

I'm afraid we're wrong too. Hell, people in the US are trying to spout this crap about us being a Christian nation, despite letters and diaries from the Founding Fathers explicitly proving it's not true.
Nonetheless, people continue to believe it and claim the schools are teaching improper education about how this nation was formed.