Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jamie_L · 10-03-2002, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:
...my analogy only refers to the next life. Your scenario of the man in a thick forest is a perfect example of our ignorance in this life. The question of heaven and hell deals with what happens when the forest goes away and we are all exposed to the light.

Well, it's in this life that we atheists are are being accused by some of turning a blind eye. Some resonses to the OP have been explicit in saying that if you are not with God at the end of this life, you are doomed. Thus, there is no chance to stand in the field and see the sun when the ignorance of this world is lifted.

I have heard, however, some Christians who say we get that second chance after death. That, really, is a much different scenario. I think there are few atheists who would stand in the face of a supernatural presence after death and continue to deny its existence. That's not really what we're about.

Jamie

ex-preacher · 10-03-2002, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
<strong>
A justified belief is one that is intellectually honest. To be justified in believing something, I must have examined the issues from "both sides" and performed sufficient inquiry. My motivation must be one of finding the truth, not affirming my comfortable presuppositions.</strong>

I have tried to honestly study the god issue from all sides. I was a minister for 12 years and have always wanted what I believed to be true. My rigorous inquiry over several years convinced me that the truth was that god doesn't exist. This ran contrary to my "comfortable presupposition." Tell, Vanderzyden, how honestly and thoroughly have you studied the god issue from both (or all) sides?

Is my lack of belief in god justified? Will I go to hell? (don't cop out)

K · 10-03-2002, 10:15 AM

MrDarwin:

I think you'll find that most Christians believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnigood, and omnibenevolent God. He just never seems to be more than one of these at once. You'll never get a straight answer to your questions because, as I'm sure you're well aware, the existence of a being with the qualities listed is completely incompatible with our observed universe. Most answers I've seen from Christians tend to be clumsy tapdances that focus on only one or two of the traits at a time.

Keith Russell · 10-03-2002, 10:23 AM

K:

Well said.

I agree.

Keith.

Autonemesis · 10-03-2002, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
This is analogous to the "clay complaining to the potter".

Except that clay is a lump of inanimate matter, and is incapable of objecting to anything, on any grounds. If clay can suffer in hell for eternity, it seems incapable of objecting to this treatment. I however, am not incapable of suffering, and I am not incapable of objecting to being made to suffer. This difference between a lump of clay and a human being is at the heart of the difficulty. If a parent tortures their child, we imprison the parent. Having created a life does not give one the right to destroy that life, or make that life suffer. You have not explained why God is exempt from this. That he purportedly created us is no justification for the right to subject us to eternal torture, for any reason. Even if I grant that sin requires punishment, the infinite punishment meted by God is infintely out of proportion to any possible finite, mortal sin.

Quote:

Surely, you may indeed avoid God altogether. However, you will most assuredly not get everything you want. Jesus had something to say about it. Take up your petition with him.

You must keep in mind that I am entertaining your position for the sake of argument. If I accept your premise, and reason from it and come to a contradiction, then I am justified in rejecting the premise that led to error. You wish me to believe in Jesus. But before I can consider that, you must answer my objections to your depictions of Jesus' purported plans for me. You are failing to do so. It even seems you do not undertand the objection here.

Quote:

-- What critical studies have you undertaken to convince yourself that they are unreliable?

They don't even agree with themselves. The gospels contradict each other. If they cannot even agree on what the story is, why should I take them seriously when they purport to tell me the significance of the events so poorly and inconsistently described?

Without even considering the gospels, the contention that the Christian view of cosmology is true, is quite fantastic. When the contradictory gospels are presented as the penultimate authoritative verification of this fantastic scheme, one must think the believers are out of their mind to expect any thoughtful person to accept such a ludicrous proposition on such flimsy and contradictory support.

And I do.

daemon · 10-03-2002, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Vanderzyden: A justified belief is one that is intellectually honest. To be justified in believing something, I must have examined the issues from "both sides" and performed sufficient inquiry. My motivation must be one of finding the truth, not affirming my comfortable presuppositions.

Well, as to the last, I can certainly say that honesty led me to my disbelief more than any desire to hold to comfortable presuppositions. As for "sufficient" inquiry, I couldn't say--I accept that I might be wrong, but I have no way of knowing what "sufficient" is; all I know is that I have inquired as much as I knew how to, and found no answers.

Quote:

Vanderzyden: Here's another way to put the question:

Do you always think and act rightly?

What does it mean to "think and act rightly?"

xeren · 10-03-2002, 10:39 AM

AAAAAAEEEIIIEEE!!!

I can't believe that you guys believe in GOD!

Sorry, i had to get that out. Now i feel better.

I have to take issue with this whole "separation from god thing". You christians are just trying to get around the fact that not accepting god is not our choice.

You say that we choose to separate ourselves from god by disbelieving in Him, but we do not choose our beliefs, we only choose the criteria for believing something, and what we believe or disbelieve results from that, as a matter of course.

If god wants to send me to hell because i don't believe in things that can't be proven to exist, then why would i want to go to heaven to live with an unjust god?

K · 10-03-2002, 10:40 AM

RJS, GeoTheo, or Vanderzyden:

I'm curious if any of you are still willing to stand by the First Cause proof in light of the fact that quantum mechanics has shown the universe to be filled with myriad uncaused events.

RJS · 10-03-2002, 10:51 AM

Quote:

the fact that quantum mechanics has shown the universe to be filled with myriad uncaused events.

Care to provide a link to information on this. I need to brush up on my quantum mechanics.

Jobar · 10-03-2002, 11:09 AM

K and RJS, please start another thread for that.

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10-03-2002, 10:15 AM	#73
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	MrDarwin: I think you'll find that most Christians believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnigood, and omnibenevolent God. He just never seems to be more than one of these at once. You'll never get a straight answer to your questions because, as I'm sure you're well aware, the existence of a being with the qualities listed is completely incompatible with our observed universe. Most answers I've seen from Christians tend to be clumsy tapdances that focus on only one or two of the traits at a time.

10-03-2002, 10:23 AM	#74
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	K: Well said. I agree. Keith.

10-03-2002, 10:39 AM	#77
xeren Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Place Posts: 285	AAAAAAEEEIIIEEE!!! I can't believe that you guys believe in GOD! Sorry, i had to get that out. Now i feel better. I have to take issue with this whole "separation from god thing". You christians are just trying to get around the fact that not accepting god is not our choice. You say that we choose to separate ourselves from god by disbelieving in Him, but we do not choose our beliefs, we only choose the criteria for believing something, and what we believe or disbelieve results from that, as a matter of course. If god wants to send me to hell because i don't believe in things that can't be proven to exist, then why would i want to go to heaven to live with an unjust god?

10-03-2002, 10:40 AM	#78
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	RJS, GeoTheo, or Vanderzyden: I'm curious if any of you are still willing to stand by the First Cause proof in light of the fact that quantum mechanics has shown the universe to be filled with myriad uncaused events.

10-03-2002, 11:09 AM	#80
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	K and RJS, please start another thread for that.

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