Freethought & Rationalism Archive

oriecat · 03-21-2003, 06:56 PM

I would like to see some biblical evidence for these views of Satan. Can one of you Christians please provide me with specific references that show these things:
[list=a][*]Satan does not like me[*]Satan wants me to suffer like him[*]Satan turned me away from God because he wants me to become lost[*]Satan is sadistic and enjoys the pain and suffering humans endure[*]Satan hurts humans through evil[/list=a]

Thank you.

philechat · 03-21-2003, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oriecat
I would like to see some biblical evidence for these views of Satan. Can one of you Christians please provide me with specific references that show these things:
[list=a][*]Satan does not like me[*]Satan wants me to suffer like him[*]Satan turned me away from God because he wants me to become lost[*]Satan is sadistic and enjoys the pain and suffering humans endure[*]Satan hurts humans through evil[/list=a]

Thank you.

The earliest mention of Satan is his torment of Job, though it appears to be God's will that he does so. In short, he is probably a minion of God used to test people's faith and not exactly a true rebel.

The "Satan-as-Freedom-Fighter" is introduced much later, as a response to Milton's poem. Milton's Satan makes several powerful accusations against God, which can be translated to the poet's own rebellion against the religious orthodoxy (and this poem also indicates Milton's possible occult leanings). The aesthetes in 19th century especially rever Satan as an embodiment of human vitality and creativity against the "decadence" and banality of the Victorian age.

Fiach · 03-21-2003, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by philechat
The earliest mention of Satan is his torment of Job, though it appears to be God's will that he does so. In short, he is probably a minion of God used to test people's faith and not exactly a true rebel.

The "Satan-as-Freedom-Fighter" is introduced much later, as a response to Milton's poem. Milton's Satan makes several powerful accusations against God, which can be translated to the poet's own rebellion against the religious orthodoxy (and this poem also indicates Milton's possible occult leanings). The aesthetes in 19th century especially rever Satan as an embodiment of human vitality and creativity against the "decadence" and banality of the Victorian age.

Clearly Satan evolved mirroring the evolution of humans in general. Horses and dogs evolved. God evolved. Jesus evolved from Messiah to special messenger from God to minor God, to a full God necessitating the borrowing of the Egyptian Trinity. Everything seems to have evolved except fundamentalists.

Fiach

pariah · 03-21-2003, 11:39 PM

ever read dracula?

dracula makes a deal with the devil-he sells his soul for the strength of 100 (i think...) men, the ability to turn into mist/a bat, and all other cool stuff.

oh, and eternal life, and he is basically impossible to kill.

haha i trick you satan!

Fiach · 03-22-2003, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theIPU
Bad stuff happens because humans made things turn bad by sinning. Hmmm, well, who tempts us?? Satan?? Evil?? Didn't God create that because he created everything? God isn't obligated to clean up the mess humans made?? Why not? I mean after all, he made it that way.

What makes us sin? It is a neurobehavioural response to some internal or external stimulus. The money lying unguarded on a table is an external stimulus. The one who sins and takes the money is one who has poor frontal inhibition of socially inappropriate behaviour. The person who resists has a more effective frontal inhibition to responding to such stimuli. That is the difference between good and sin. It is evolutionarily selected behaviour genetically coded in this selection process. Like all biological systems also genetically coded, its effectiveness varies. It is much like musical ability is clearly brain based but some violinists are brilliant and other stink. I am good but well short of brilliant.

Getting rid of satan (evil) wouldn't make the world a wonderful place? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a world without any evil all good? Too bad that all-powerful being who "loves us" didn't make it that way to begin with.

A world without evil is Utopia. Utopia is an unattainable society. Human behaviour at this point in time is always going to have biological or genetic or neurocircuitry flaws or combinations of all three. This is going to vary from nearly perfect, very good, fair, rather poor, to real failures (charlie Manson). It is like some plants growing full and beautiful, some just average, and other looking like shriveled rubbish when all cared for the same way.

1. Humans follow satan's example by sinning without repentence...I wonder why God gave satan's example a possibility in the first place...

What you are describing is of great interest. Some humans do harmful things because they cannot inhibit their urges. But they feel sorry later. Others lack capacity of remorse, the Psychopaths, and they not only have defective inhibition but in additon they lack the temporo-limbic circuits that intuitively tell us by our inner voice that the action is wrong. Ted Bundy is such a case. Maybe Saddam Husseine is another.

2. God can use evil to bring a greater good and glory to Him?? couldn't God bring the greatest good out without evil using his all-powerfullness? Why does he need glory for himself? Isn't he just perfect anyway?

I can't accept this. It seems to me to be morally inconsistent. It is the classic Fundamentalist argument that the end justifies the means. I just don't accept that, and it represents a moral flaw in God. If god were real, I would suspect that he indeed has a brain that has frontal and possibly temporo-limbic flaws.

3. Satan tempts people to test their faith? wouldn't God already know what they will do anyway because he's omniscient, I mean, what's the point?

This is one of the most disturbing features of Christianity. Why does God set up sting operations. Why does he create us to be lured by certain things (the fruit in the garden) and when we finally give in, he seems to gloat in punishing us? If we have to believe in God, why does God hide? Why does he go to so much trouble to make his existence seem implausible? If he gives revelation, why does he give multiple different revelations/scriptures and fault us if we don't GUESS the correct one. Nothing in the scriptures themselves (Hindu, Zoroastrian, Buddhist, Jain, Judaic, Islamic, Christian, Wiccan, Pagan) show that they are right and the others wrong. All have some errors and contradictions. Why would God deliberately make us pass through a vicious gauntlet of mace wielding blokes to get to an answer. It seems that by your ideology, God really wants most of us to fail, so he has an excuse to condemn us. And who knows if there is an Anthropomorphic God, that it is just as likely Allah than Jesus, or YHWH than Allah, or Brahma than Trinity?

Fiach

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03-21-2003, 06:56 PM	#31
oriecat Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Portland OR USA Posts: 1,098	I would like to see some biblical evidence for these views of Satan. Can one of you Christians please provide me with specific references that show these things: [list=a][]Satan does not like me[]Satan wants me to suffer like him[]Satan turned me away from God because he wants me to become lost[]Satan is sadistic and enjoys the pain and suffering humans endure[*]Satan hurts humans through evil[/list=a] Thank you.

03-21-2003, 11:39 PM	#34
pariah Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: الرياض Posts: 6,456	ever read dracula? dracula makes a deal with the devil-he sells his soul for the strength of 100 (i think...) men, the ability to turn into mist/a bat, and all other cool stuff. oh, and eternal life, and he is basically impossible to kill. haha i trick you satan!

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