Richard Carrier

Littledrummerboy, I am curious: where does Plantinga say that he cannot not believe? I would like to read the context--for reasons other than the discussion here.

As to the discussion here, I confess I don't understand your professed behavior. You say you obey God---for no reason whatever? That makes no psychological sense, so I am perplexed. No action is possible without the impelling force of a desire to act. What desire impels you to obey God?

This leads to a plethora of other questions:

Why do you permit that "obedience desire" to override all other conflicting desires? Is it just inexplicably and for no reason the strongest desire in you? Or is there a cause of its overriding strength--and if so, what is that cause?

And is this desire to obey primal, itself uncaused by any other desires? Or, if caused by other desires, what underlying desires are those? And if uncaused by any underlying desires, then where did this obedience desire come from? And why do you have it and I do not?

In short, you deny that you believe for any personal benefit. Yet if that is so, your belief seems inexplicable to me, at least given what you have said so far. So please help me out here and construct the psychology of your belief system as far as you understand it.

I'd appreciate that.

Richard Carrier

Tercel, I have two general questions for clarification:

You say you don't think belief is necessary for salvation. Since this directly contradicts the words of Jesus in the New Testament (as well as many other passages in the Bible), I wonder how you justify your belief in the face of a Holy Book that declares against you?

I only know of one such justification, and if it is not yours, I'd like to learn yours since that would add to my knowledge of Christianity in an important way. The one I know: By "liberal" do you follow the view that the Bible is not the work of God but a fallible work of man and that the only sacred truth accessible to the believer is through the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit? (A view that makes sense to me, aptly explained by Jimmy Carter, one of the best men alive). Or do you have some other justification for rejecting Biblical statements and adopting the opposite?

Related to that question:

I have always understood Christianity to be, by definition, the belief that faith in Christ procures salvation. If you reject that, then I am having trouble seeing what makes you a Christian--as opposed to a deist or some generic theist. Why do you claim Christianity as your religion when you don't think salvation has anything to do with Christ? It would help me a lot to understand your answer.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Richard Carrier,
'Personal gain'?

Have you ever actually been a Christian?

It's the opposite of 'opportunistic'...



Do you take what you want? No...you give to the poor.

Do you gain from others loss? No...you help the sick.

Do you strike back at those who hurt you? No...you turn the other cheek.

Do you take advantage of your enemies weakness? No...you pray for your enemy.




In what way, exactly, is Christianity 'opportunistic'?





Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Littledrummerboy

Don, come on you are smarter than this, you have made my point for me. Of course I have no choice but to follow the laws of physics, that is exactly what I am saying. Just as I have no choice but to follow the law of physics, I have no choice but to believe in a God who is as real to me as the law of physics. I would say that Plantiga does follow God without wavering, (spelling?) I do. This does not mean it is blind faith, I've studied it, I've lived it, and I live it now without any doubt. Just as I live with not doubt that if I fell off the Empire State Building I would fall picking up increasing speed foot by foot and continue to fall even after I'd hit the ground a few inches or feet. It was not erroneous as you state, perhaps you disagree with it, but it is a well thought out, studied, contiplated, statement, and belief. To change my mind about God is not to leave him, or change him, I still follow him and am bound to him, it is just my perspective that has changed. Of course I cannot not follow the laws of physics, but that does not mean my understanding of it has changed. You have to know what I am saying, there is no clearer way to state it. Ok, why is it that a lot of scientists can sit in a room, form a hypothesis, test it, come to a conclusion, agree on that conclusion based on seperate tests and you have "proof," yet Christians believe there is a God, several have tested, several have talked it over, used "tests" that have passed and thus concure that God exists. Simply because many people do not believe in a God means nothing...there are smart people in this world...in this country, that believe man has never been to the moon, does this mean that we should give that view merrit? Why is it that Christian "tests" and Christian verification is not enough to form a postulate? Don, your last point is disapointing. It is nothing but pure speculation. I am not going to sit and waste my time thinking "what if I were born a butterfly, or born in China, or what if..." Thanks

Richard, I obey God because he is God and I owe absolute respect, and love, for him. It is that respect, and love, that compels me to follow. It is out of that respect that I obey God, and am loyal to him and what he tells me. Plantiga says he cannot not believe because God is real. It is that simple. To him, and myself, God is as real as the food we eat, the water we drink, the air we breathe. Just as I cannot not believe in these things, we cannot not believe in God. I will look for the essay that I read, hopefully I can find it. The will to obey is not primal, this would be one reason you do not do it. It is a decision. I hope that helps. Thanks

Stephen :notworthy

yguy

It would appear, then, that have no free will. Have I got that right?

-DM-

If that is what you believe, you either do not understand what I have said or else you have a warped idea of reality.I'm sorry Stephen, but your statement, above--if you believe it to be true--indicates beyond that shadow of a doubt that you do not correctly understand your faith in relation to the laws of physics. You are asserting a belief as if it were fact in the same way that physical laws are fact. Such is not the case.If you have no doubt whatsoever, that means that you are closed-minded, not open to new truth.I do know what you are saying. Unfortunately, you are confused as to what represents choice and belief as compared to facts, such as the facts described by the laws of physics.This has already been answered more than once. The answer, again, is that people come to a different "God" and different ideas about "God." Often those gods and those ideas are mutually exclusive, therefore they cannot all be correct. There is no way of proving which, if any, of those ideas are true.No test is needed to form a postulate. A test is needed to verify or to disprove a postulate. There is no test which can either verify or disprove the existence of "God" or what "He" would want. God-belief is hardly in the same category as belief in the laws of physics. Neither you nor Plantiga seem to understand that.It is not speculation but rather a statement of observable fact that the religion that one adheres to tends to be the prevailing religion of the geographical region in which one is born and raised. Were you to have been born and raised in Iran, it is extremely unlikely--only a minuscule chance--that you would be a practicing Catholic. In fact, in order to do so would have required you to keep it a secret. Instead, you would almost certainly be a Muslim. You would likely be asserting that you could not possibly not believe in Allah, could not possibly not follow His laws any more than you could not believe and follow the laws of physics, but you almost certainly would not believe what you now believe with regard to "God" and what it means to follow "God's laws." Attempt to determine the percentage of the population of Iran which is Catholic, and that will be obvious to you.

-Don-

P.S. If you want to continue to believe that you have no choice in the matter of belief, that you could not possibly choose to not follow what you now consider to be the "laws of God," then so be it. But given that I know people who once felt the same way that you do and who have since changed their belief--drastically--I know better than to believe such an overreaching statement. In any case, I don't care to restate over and over again what should be obvious to you. Please feel free to have the last word.

-DM-

Good point.

If Stephen and Plantiga have no other option, if they could not possibly not follow the so-called laws of "God" as they believe them to be--never mind that believers often disagree to some extent on what those laws consist of--then the free will to not follow god-belief and the so-called laws of "God" is gone, thus the Christian concept of free will would seem to have been negated.

-Don-

-DM-

You asked Richard, but as an ex-Christian I will nevertheless provide an answer. To practice the Christian precepts that you mentioned might well be the opposite of opportunistic. On the other hand, your list is hardly exhaustive. To gain forgiveness of "sin," to gain "salvation," to obtain a one-way ticket to "heaven," to avoid eternal punishment--these opportunistic considerations are what motivates many to become Christians. Not only that, in the Bible church with which I was primarily associated, we were taught that we were perfectly justified in working for a higher station in heaven by means of our dedication to the Church and to "Christ." In other words, there was justifiable self-interest, or "selfishness" if you will, in doing "good."

Here is some pertinent information from just one of the sources which I could use:

-Don-

Tercel

I'm sorry you think that. I'm inclined to think that if you altered your concept of God a little you wouldn't find it so unbelieveable. What exactly about God do you find unbelievable?

It means doing what you would do if you believed God existed. To me that involves going to church, praying, bible-study, doing my best to be unselfish and nice to people, helping those in my society who are in need etc.

I am uncertain about the rightness of homosexuality. To me the only clear place in the Bible that it is condemned is Leviticus which also condemns quite a few trivial things. (eg eating shellfish)

Tercel

I'm sure we both agree that the Bible has numerous inconsistencies. The question of what is required for salvation is one it is particularly inconsistent on. If you were to declare that belief is necessary for salvation, I could accuse you of contradicting the Bible in the same way. There are plenty of passages against this position, including Matthew 25:31-46 which is the only time when Jesus gives details of the final judgement.
In my opinion, my position is just as, if not more, biblically consistent than the conservative Protestant teaching.

My position on salvation is extraordinarily close to the standard Eastern Orthodox teaching on the subject which is compared to Protestant teaching here.

Well, I'm not impressed by your knowledge since the Orthodox (the 2nd largest Christian sect) denies this, and the Roman Catholics and the Anglicans (the other 2 of the 3 largest Christian groups) tend to be borderline in the subject. And if you've read CS Lewis' writings, you should know he didn't believe this: Was he a Christian?

To copy+paste my beliefs from a recent thread on liberal Christianity:

I believe in God the Father. I believe he is the creator of all. I believe he was before everyone else, I believe he is more powerful than anyone else, I believe he is more knowledgeable than anyone else, I believe he is present everywhere.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God and Man: One Person, Two Natures (and heck, even Two Wills if anybody cares). I believe he was born of a virgin. I believe he was baptised, that he taught, and that he performed miracles. I believe he died and rose again. I believe his incarnation and death was to deal with sin and reunite man unto God. I believe he shall come again at the end of this world and establish an everlasting kingdom.
I believe in the Holy Spirit and his coming at Pentecost. I believe he works within people to transform them into selfless, loving beings. I believe he empowers such things as Healing and speaking in tongues.
I believe in the existence of demons and angels. I believe that some will gain eternal happiness and others eternal suffering in the life to come.

I didn't say that. I believe that belief in Christ during your life is not necessary nor sufficient for salvation.