Freethought & Rationalism Archive

03-27-2003, 07:47 PM

Quote:

"This is offensive not just to the 14% of the U.S. population that is not religious, but to practitioners of many diverse beliefs, including Christians who do not follow 'fasting' traditions of supplication," Gaylor added. She quipped, "Of course, I think it might be a good idea if Rep. Sensenbrenner fasted."

"The resolution is full of references to 'God,' as if belief in one is unanimous. It is insufferable ego to imagine that, if there were a god, it would respond to these demeaning supplications. It is primitive to imagine that the natural laws of the universe could be suspended or altered by group wishful thinking. Ironically, as Congress entertains these meaningless motions, the Iraqi peoples and their supporters are praying to their God for the opposite results!"

Congress Entertains More Religious Window-Dressing

Toto · 03-27-2003, 09:09 PM

Newsday article

Some of this is a disturbing read, not least of all from realizing that muddled thinking like this occurs in Congress:

From the Congressional Record: [Page: H2334 ff]

Quote:

Mr. DAVIS of Illinois

Mr. Speaker, the resolution before us calls on the American people to fast and pray for the United States and the Armed Forces fighting the war in Iraq. Anytime there is any conversation or notion or discussion of a religious nature, there are bound to be different people who have different thoughts and ideas about it. Different people worship different forms of supremacy. As mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, friends and neighbors, and most of all as a peace-loving people, we seek and hope for a quick resolution to the conflict in Iraq.

All those who believe in a supreme being, whether it be God, Jehovah, Allah, Buddha or whether people call their belief Prince of Peace or Rose of Sharon or Lily of the Valley, to me it does not really matter. What matters is that people believe in the supremacy of a being. They believe in the coming together. They believe in a force that is more powerful than anything that we have been able to actually discern or see. It is something that is one of the mysteries, in many ways, of life but a part of the hope that people have, part of the faith.

. . .

Mr. KUCINICH. Mr. Speaker, I have the greatest respect for the gentleman from Illinois (Mr. Davis) and the gentleman from Connecticut (Mr. Shays) and understand the spirit in which they come forward to support this resolution.

Considering the dynamics of this war, I would just like to urge a note of caution here, Mr. Speaker; and the note of caution is that this resolution may be seen by some as an attempt to inject religion into this war at a time when some of America's enemies abroad are asserting that this is indeed a war about religion.

I know that the intentions of the sponsors are to ask for the blessings of Providence upon our troops. I think that all of us support the troops. Some of us do not support the mission.

Pope John Paul II, greeting a group of Polish pilgrims in Vatican City on March 5, 2003, said, "I ask all of you for this prayer and fasting. May these be concrete gestures of the involvement on the part of those who believe in the mission to remind the world that it is never too late for peace.''

I think that it would be very constructive as this House proceeds in deliberating resolutions of this type if an appeal was made not only for the success of those who work for this country under the flag of this country in fields far from home, as soldiers in combat, I think it would be constructive if this House also in this resolution or in another resolution would agree that it is never too late for peace.

I also think that aggressive war is not consistent with prayerful aspirations. The golden rule, which represents an even higher calling than this resolution, do unto others as you would have them do unto you and love your neighbor as you would love yourself, I think is instructive in guiding us to be quite cautious about passing a resolution that would easily be interpreted as sanctioning aggressive war.

So I reluctantly come here to offer this note of caution, knowing full well that Members who have proposed this are very good people, they are good Americans, they are patriotic Americans, and we all care about our troops.

Mr. SHAYS. Mr. Speaker, I think the resolution speaks for itself. It is a resolution that I think all of us can support with humility and grace and a love for our great Nation.

I would just remind the Members of this Chamber that the medallion that is directly facing the Speaker is the medallion of Moses. We have been guided by his laws for many years.

Mr. STRICKLAND. Mr. Speaker, I came to the Chamber today to speak on this resolution. I intend to vote for it and support it, but there were some comments that I think are relevant regarding this resolution.

I am a little troubled that we would presume to tell the American people what they should do to secure the blessings and protections of Providence. It just troubles me that it begins by saying we recognize the public need for fasting and prayer in order to secure the blessings and protections of Providence. I really think that is a theological conclusion, a theological belief. It just causes me some difficulty.

I think that each of us in our own way have an understanding of how to pray and why we should pray, but it also bothers me that we would pass this resolution without considering it as serious as it is. I would hope, and I am going to make three suggestions related to those of us who in a few moments may be voting on this resolution, that we do three things.

That we commit ourselves during this day of fasting to go without food, that we not ask the American people or suggest the American people should do something that each of us as individuals do not do ourselves. I would also suggest that on that day we should forego any political fundraising at which food may be served or consumed; and, thirdly, I would suggest that those of us who would vote for this resolution would ask our leadership to close the Members dining room during that day. I think if we vote for this resolution, we should take it seriously. We should follow its dictates, and we should do what we are asking each of the American citizens to do. I thank the gentleman for yielding me this time.

Mr. DAVIS of Illinois. I do not have any other speakers; so I would say, in closing, I would state that I am a strong believer in the first amendment. I believe in prayer, fasting. I believe that we should pray not only for our troops but that we pray to end this conflict as quickly as it could possibly be ended and as peacefully as it could be ended. I pray that the loss of life would be diminished as much as possible and that people who are fighting from the United States as well as those from other countries and other nations would have the power of an Almighty supreme force invoked so that all of us can escape this effort with as much hope, peace, and possibility as we can. I urge support for this resolution.

Mr. AKIN.

. . .

That actually, though, if we think about it logically, is very consistent with the very purpose and cause of what America has always been about. If we really think about what is it that is the glue that defines America, what holds us together as a people, it is that belief that there is a God who grants to all of us certain basic and unalienable rights, the right to life, the light to liberty, the right to pursue the dream that God puts into everybody's heart. So we do not believe that that is just an American right, but that is something that is for all people everywhere, and it is that belief that has propelled our soldiers onto the battlefield and made us to stand strong in the face against many different types of tyrants, just as we are even at this day.

So it is with these thoughts and these sentiments that we once again turn back to our traditions and to our history and ask and implore the Almighty God to watch over us, to remind us of our faults and places where we need to change our ways but also to strengthen us and to encourage us and help us to prevail because we do know, in fact, it is true that all people everywhere should have life and liberty and be allowed to pursue the dreams of their own hearts.

lateralis · 03-27-2003, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Maturin
When Congress finally wises up and declares a National Day of Bacon Double Cheeseburgers, Debauchery and Public Cunnilingus, they can count me in.

ok this made me laugh.

but seriously, it saddens me to no end to think that there are people in the world, elected (and unelected) leaders no less, who still think this sort of thing merits disscussion. it's 2003 for cryin out loud! enough of the pandering to the close-minded, scared, little people who still think god is gonna give them a big potch on the butt! So basically, I'm in for the day of cheeseburgers and sacrilegious public debauchery

lateralis

Toto · 03-27-2003, 11:43 PM

Here's the Roll Call Vote. There were actually 49 nays and 23 voting "present"

Quote:

H RES 153 2/3 YEA-AND-NAY 27-MAR-2003 1:39 PM
QUESTION: On Motion to Suspend the Rules and Agree
BILL TITLE: Recognizing the public need for fasting and prayer in order to secure the blessings and protection of Providence for the people of the United States and our Armed Forces during the conflict in Iraq and under the threat of terrorism at home

PopeInTheWoods · 03-28-2003, 08:38 AM

Gee, the GOP goes 221-0 for it, what a shock. Tell me again how they're not lapdogs for the fundies.

PopeInTheWoods · 03-28-2003, 08:44 AM

And today's a Lenten Friday, isn't it? Looks like a Wendy's Double with Cheese for lunch.

This "National Day of Prayer and Fasting" bill needs an assfisting-style typo . Just change the 's' to an 'r'....

Andy

RawData · 03-28-2003, 03:04 PM

Has the senate passed this POS yet? If so, how soon until GW Bozo signs it and sets a date.
I need to plan for the BIG party. Possibly including Stevens suggestions...

RD

Toto · 03-28-2003, 03:14 PM

The Senate seems to have passed a similar measure designating March 17 as the day of prayer and fasting, but that day has passed. This resignation calls on President Bush to proclaim the day.

Legislators tend to do this sort of grandstanding that panders to a particular constituency and doesn't seem to hurt anyone else. If the resolution actually calls for closing the House Dining room and foregoing fundraising for the day, I predict that it will get buried under more pressing business.

Grumpy · 03-28-2003, 07:29 PM

Am I the only one who thinks it odd to call for "humility" at a time this nation is wielding its global hyperpower status like a club?

"Dear God, please grant us the humility to humbly invade Iraq, so that we may humbly kill Saddam Hussein and humbly bring democracy to the Iraqi people."

RawData · 03-29-2003, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy
"Dear God, please grant us the humility to humbly invade Iraq, so that we may humbly kill Saddam Hussein and humbly bring democracy to the Iraqi people."

and Humbly pay off, and/or piss off the rest of the globe.

Ah, "What a country, America, I love it" - Yakov Smirnov {sp}

Yah, we is massively humble.
RD

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03-28-2003, 08:38 AM	#15
PopeInTheWoods Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Rochester NY USA Posts: 4,318	Gee, the GOP goes 221-0 for it, what a shock. Tell me again how they're not lapdogs for the fundies.

03-28-2003, 08:44 AM	#16
PopeInTheWoods Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Rochester NY USA Posts: 4,318	And today's a Lenten Friday, isn't it? Looks like a Wendy's Double with Cheese for lunch. This "National Day of Prayer and Fasting" bill needs an assfisting-style typo . Just change the 's' to an 'r'.... Andy

03-28-2003, 03:04 PM	#17
RawData Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Puget Sound, WA, US Posts: 1,022	Has the senate passed this POS yet? If so, how soon until GW Bozo signs it and sets a date. I need to plan for the BIG party. Possibly including Stevens suggestions... RD

03-28-2003, 03:14 PM	#18
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The Senate seems to have passed a similar measure designating March 17 as the day of prayer and fasting, but that day has passed. This resignation calls on President Bush to proclaim the day. Legislators tend to do this sort of grandstanding that panders to a particular constituency and doesn't seem to hurt anyone else. If the resolution actually calls for closing the House Dining room and foregoing fundraising for the day, I predict that it will get buried under more pressing business.

03-28-2003, 07:29 PM	#19
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	Am I the only one who thinks it odd to call for "humility" at a time this nation is wielding its global hyperpower status like a club? "Dear God, please grant us the humility to humbly invade Iraq, so that we may humbly kill Saddam Hussein and humbly bring democracy to the Iraqi people."

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