Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jat · 05-07-2003, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NobleSavage
I've done a little research on RFID tags. Obviously there are privacy concerns with RF tags, but the other side of the coin is that such a system does have lots of benefits for the retailer -- not to mention much quicker check out times. I'm normally a little on the paranoid side and a big supporter of privacy rights; however, I've come to the conclusion that RFID tags are really not worth getting your knickers in a twist over. I can't see what the hysterical whining is about. Here is the link: http://www.rf-id.com to general tags site. Read all about them. The tags are just that - tags, just like any other tag on your clothing. It is not as if unique ids are "embedded" in the threads of your pants and cannot be removed.

Incidentally, what is the issue with privacy, even if the tag was somehow magically embedded into the thread of your pants? The tag identifies your pants as being olive-green khakis size 38L, specifically made in Malaysia by a 12 year old? What part of that is not public knowledge or painfully obvious? What part of that is divulging information about the wearer of such clothes that he/she is not already giving up simply by wearing them? They contain no more information than a normal bar code. If you are truly paranoid you can always throw you clothes in the microwave for a few seconds which will fry the tags. You have a much greater chance of being tracked by you debit/credit card. More information also at http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20030327S0016

There is also some benefit to implanting GPS chips in everyone's butt, but would you wan them to?

There is also the chance that a dishonest store could make it so that the chips will disable your item after the warantee runs out if you don't buy their extended warantee and charge you for its "repair" when you bring it back in.

NialScorva · 05-07-2003, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Happy Wonderer
[B]I can imagine a lot of annoying scenarios with these tags. Suppose we decide to make smoking really unpleasant: as you walk by video screens on the sidewalk you get bombarded with anti-smoking ads directed at your particular brand of cigarettes. ("Smoke Camels? Humph, you'll soon look like one...") At some point you know that this will be hijacked by 'worthy social goals.' (I'm an anti-smoker by the way.)

Once again, there is nothing in the tags that isn't on the barcode on the thing you bought, and there is no way to tie it to you unless you use a means that they already use to tie purchases to you, such as a credit card or a store savings card.

NialScorva · 05-07-2003, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Martin Buber
Is this cost of this retailer convenice device passed on to the consumer? Damn nickle and dime nickle and dime.

Martin Buber

Unless it saves them more by simplifying inventory management and reducing theft. The most obvious side use of the system is to always kill the tag at the register and have sensors at the door. It'd be harder to overcome than the current RC tags some places use, and less ugly than the huge dye pack bolt-on things.

NialScorva · 05-07-2003, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jat
Irrelevant, it is none of their business and an invasion of privacy. Do you read everysingle spam email you get, or leave all of that spyware on your system which uses up your bandwith?

Ok... complete non sequitor on the spam and spyware.

In addition: it *is* their business. A sale requires two parties, a seller and a buyer. Are you saying that only the buyer is allowed to know that the sale took place? They participated in the transaction, I see no reason that they shouldn't have some rights with respect to information about that transaction.

There are *far* more important privacy issues to get worked up over than this. It doesn't even show up on the radar of civil liberty threats.

Jat · 05-07-2003, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NialScorva
Ok... complete non sequitor on the spam and spyware.

In addition: it *is* their business. A sale requires two parties, a seller and a buyer. Are you saying that only the buyer is allowed to know that the sale took place? They participated in the transaction, I see no reason that they shouldn't have some rights with respect to information about that transaction.

There are *far* more important privacy issues to get worked up over than this. It doesn't even show up on the radar of civil liberty threats.

All it takes is a foot in the door. Did you see the move Minority Report? I'm not speaking of the pre-murder plot, but how they were followed around all of the time by the ads and the like. There was obsolutely no privacy there. Even to how the police collected their searches with their little spiderbots. One guy even went to the point of having his eyes removed. This sort of world is not all that farfetched as it may seem.

Transaction have taken place for thousands of years without bugging the products. The current anti-thief devices work quite well as it is.

Loren Pechtel · 05-07-2003, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NialScorva
It's just the next generation of the anti-theft tags that has the bar code in it. If they don't turn it off, someone will be able to say "there's a VCR in that house" if they get rather close with the right equipment.

I doubt they will be able to do this. Rather close with such things is normally inches. Energy drops off at the square of distance--and if these are beamed-energy devices like I suspect then it drops off at the fourth power of distance. You very rapidly get an unacceptable power level of the illuminator beam.

Loren Pechtel · 05-07-2003, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Martin Buber
Is this cost of this retailer convenice device passed on to the consumer? Damn nickle and dime nickle and dime.

Martin Buber

Note how many things already come with anti-shoplifting tags. It's worth it to them in reduced loss.

Happy Wonderer · 05-07-2003, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NialScorva
Once again, there is nothing in the tags that isn't on the barcode on the thing you bought, and there is no way to tie it to you unless you use a means that they already use to tie purchases to you, such as a credit card or a store savings card.

Once again, I understand that. I asked is there any technological reason that one couldn't put a globally unique identifier on these chips? Bandwidth limitatation, only 16 bits of information, things like that. Both UPCs and GUIDs are simply numbers, albeit one is much larger than the other. And note that there is something that a RF tag tells about you that a credit card doesn't -- your location!

hw

Loren Pechtel · 05-07-2003, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Happy Wonderer

Random point: even though the tags currently only contain barcode information, is there any technological barrier to putting globally unique identifiers in them? I know people get into a tizzy about Microsoft's GUIDs (which are merely a programming convenience) but it really would be useful to have GUIDs in smart tags. This would help in stock rotation and prevent certain kinds of fraud.

Some people have gotten in a tizzy about GUID's because they aren't random. Given one GUID from your system any other GUID can be tested to see if it came from your system or not. (Note: This only works if you have a network card in your machine.) Thus supposedly anonymous uses of GUID's can be mated up with your personal information.

Microsoft never promised that they were anonymous. They are guaranteed to be globally unique if you have a network card and in all probability unique even if you don't. They are by no means random, though.

Loren Pechtel · 05-07-2003, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jat
All it takes is a foot in the door. Did you see the move Minority Report? I'm not speaking of the pre-murder plot, but how they were followed around all of the time by the ads and the like. There was obsolutely no privacy there. Even to how the police collected their searches with their little spiderbots. One guy even went to the point of having his eyes removed. This sort of world is not all that farfetched as it may seem.

We are going to get the targeted ads eventually. Note how they worked in that movie: Retina scan. If you want to see things you have to have your eyes open.

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