Marduk

Just curious, all the pro Israeli Jews I know are all either Orthodox or Conservative and I can see where their position comes from. But what about atheists?
�let�s re-create an ancient country, in the 20th century, that is already populated by people who we will just move out, even though they have lived there for thousands of years, because this land was promised to Jews by an invisible being, who we don�t believe, in 3000 years ago�
Would there be a justification to rebuild Babylon or the Hittite Empire as well?

Evangelion

FYI, it was actually the secular Jews who were responsible for the re-establishment of the State of Israel.

Where do you go from here?

Sojourner553

I am not Jewish, but as I recall from past discussions:

Atheist Jews rememberALL Jews were targeted by the Nazis because of their Jewish background -- ie not because of their religion. (ie atheists Jews were rounded up with everyone else).

Einstein, as I recall was against zionism at first, but changed his mind when he determined there was enough anti semitic feeling in the world that the Jews needed a place where they could be free from persecution.

fando

And what better place than Jerusalem?

Wasn't Argentina one of the options? I hear that the religious element was instrumental in the decision to settle the 'ancestral' holy land. Zionism might have been secular, but one can't simply dismiss the religious influences.

Grad Student Humanist

I think the real question should be why anyone who isn't Jewish lends any creedence to the idea of zionism at all.

So what if the Bible says that God gave Israel to the Jews? It's a Jewish myth. How is that now used as a means of providing legitimacy for a Jewish state?

What if the Native Americans have a text which says that their gods gave them the United States as their "promised land"? Would the US government give it to them? Would the world rally round their cause? I doubt it. It would be dismissed as primitive myth and that's it.

Yet the Stone Age myths in the Bible are somehow enough justification for the West to expel the people who were living in Israel and then give it to the Jews. And the idea that Israel is the Jew's homeland, now and forever, is not questioned because it's in the Bible. It's bullshit.

Evangelion

The Zionists formed a politlical movement, not a religious movement.

Their argument was based on history, not the Bible.

Here's a question for you, GSH - how would you answer the Saami if they told you that their land rights are legitimate?

Evangelion

It's also worth noting that the Orthodox Jews perceived Zionism as a threat to their existence.

They were strongly opposed to the Zionist policy.

Evangelion

Interestingly enough, most of the early Zionist leaders were Socialists.

Grad Student Humanist

The Zionist argument is bankrupt, any way you look at it. The Jews, Hebrews, Isrealites, whatever you want to call them, were not the original owners of the land. At the time it was "given" to them it was occupied by other people who should never have been evicted to make room for the Jews. If 20th century Jews wanted a "homeland" they should have chosen an unoccupied territory.

And whether or not the land was given to them as a result of the Bible's promise, the Old Testament is used repeatedly, particularly by fundies, as support for not only the existance of a Jewish state, but for the millions and millions of dollars the US pours into Isreal.

As for the Saami, I have no idea who they are so I can't answer your question.

Evangelion

Why?

*snip*

Nor were the Founding Fathers. Or the Normans. Or the white Australians. So what you're actually telling me here, is that the Jewsi acquired their land in the same way that most everyone else did. Tell me, please - how does this invalidate their claim to the land?

Why? Why not their own territory, which was never totally devoid of Jews in the first place? Why not the territory from which other people have consistently tried to expel them?

You know - the land that was actually theirs.

*snip*

But we're not talking about the fundies, we're talking about Zionism and the Jews. Let's try and stay on track, please.

You're joking, right?