Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Optional · 07-18-2003, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RED DAVE
There is no evidence for this: just wishful thinking.

[sarcasm]My gosh, you're right!! Well, except for the tiny little bit of circumstantial so-called 'evidence' that he has specifically said so on a number of occasions, but other than that, no evidence whatsoever![/sarcasm]

-me

RED DAVE · 07-18-2003, 08:58 AM

From Optional:

Quote:

except for the tiny little bit of circumstantial so-called 'evidence' that he has specifically said so on a number of occasions

Details, please.

I regard this discussion as extremely important. Everyone, myself included (with my big mouth), has to be held accountable for statements of fact and value and perform the educational purpose of teaching the rest of us.

Otherwise, it's just bullshit.

RED DAVE

Tigermilk · 07-18-2003, 09:15 AM

A thought occured to me as I was reading this thread.

The people get the government they deserve

Is that an old saying, or did I make that up?

I am, BTW, a Brit whose own country is being fucked over by Blair, Bush's little Yes-man (and I voted for the bastard, I am sad to say).

dcwolf · 07-18-2003, 02:33 PM

Dean is in favor of scientific research for industrial hemp and medical marijuana, among other areas. Besides that, he's a physician. Look at the man's background, his lifestyle and his character. Compare to Bush.

Dean on
stem cell research...

Quote:

�I will fully fund our ability to do stem cell research based on medical facts -- not religious ideology.�

Dean on education...
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Vermont is 2nd in fourth grade science, 6th in eighth grade science.
http://www.edweek.org/sreports/qc03/...radesum-t1.cfm

Dean's record on the environment, education (his work with the Governor's Institutes), and other things...

Quote:

Visit the Governor's Institutes website at http://www.giv.org/main.html. Governor Dean's efforts to extrapolate learning through unconventional education experiences has enriched the lives of many young Vermonters, and will continue to do so for years to come.

Dean with the NGA...
http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Howar...nvironment.htm

Quote:

The Governors support continued federal funding for research and development technology in this area. They also believe it is essential to engage the private sector by fostering technology partnerships between industry and government.

Bush is gutting head start...
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../index_np.html

Quote:

The letter, signed by Windy Hill, associate commissioner of the Head Start Bureau in the Department of Health and Human Services, was a response to a campaign by the private, nonprofit National Head Start Association that urged Head Start parents and employees to write or e-mail their representatives to protest what they say is the president's dismantling of the program. "Your political activities are governed and, in many ways, restricted or limited by federal law," Hill's letter said.

Not to mention massive teacher layoffs under Bush's watch.

Interview with Dean regarding education.

marylandnaturegirl · 07-18-2003, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krieger
Gore was a "stiff" loser. Besides his right-wing views on almost all issues, the guy completely lacked a personality. He offered nothing to the people, besides being (allegedly) a "lesser evil".

I haven't read all the replies on this thread.

I sure as heck hope that SOMEONE called you on this ridiculous statement about Al Gore having right wing views on most issues?

Are you freakin' kidding me?

Lets see
Pro-Choice LEFT
Pro Gun Control LEFT
Pro Pro PRo PRO Environment LEFT
Anti-Tobacco LEFT
Pro Unions/Labor LEFT
Pro Civil Rights LEFT
Anti-HMO LEFT
Against Pharmaceutical companies jacking up prices LEFT
Against Vouchers and for supporting Public Schools LEFT
Stuck up for Atheists to the Media during the campaign LEFT!
I could go on with more examples but I think you get the point.

No personality? Well you obviously never met the guy, he was very warm and charming. It was the late night talk show hosts that first came up with the Stiff thing because they couldn't find any other flaws in him like they had with Quayle and BUsh Sr. when they were VP's. (Its a favorite past time to make fun of the VP's. with Cheney they freakin pick on him for his heart problems)

Gore happens to have very broad shoulders and broad chest so of course he is going to look rigid stuffing that kind of physique in to a suit. The stiff thing just stuck from the talk show hosts but if you ever met him or saw him interact with people he was anything but stiff and in fact is more outgoing and personable/down to earth than Bill Clinton is. I agree that this may not have translated on camera. Who cares about all that anyway. He sure as heck coulda cleaned Bush's clock and pretty nearly seemed like he was going to during one of the debates. LOL. Bush was like a scared rabbit.

Don't forget that Gore received more votes than any Democrat has EVEr and Gore did not have Ross Perot to siphon off Conservative votes as did CLinton in both his elections.

Anyhow, if you truly think that Gore was a right winger then you were truly brainwashed by someone. Not sure if it was by Nader or by the Republicans.

Gore was way more left than Clinton. That is why they were at odds at times because Gore was wanting to more left leaning things and Clinton kept bringing everything back to the center.
Gore was much more disciplined in a million ways and Gore was in politics for the right reasons, to help the "little guys" no matter what hog wash you may think.

Check his whole career and his whole history. There was a reason that the Elder Bush called him Ozone Man.

While were on the topic of defending Gore can I just say that
Al Gore NEVER said that he INVENTED the internet.
You can find out the story behind that B.S. on that urban legend debunker site.

I am not ANTI-Nader although I am not a fan of his. I think the left needs to band together, not fracture in to little special interest parties like The Atheist Party, The Greens, The Pro Choice Party, The Anti-Gun party etc. That just won't win any elections.

We can't be idealouges and only vote for a candidate that we agree with 100% because that is just a cop out.
That gives people an excuse to vote for someone they know doesn't have a chance in heck of winning because when problems arise in the world they can then say "Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him/her"

Take a chance, back a candidate that actually will WIN.

Lets take our country BACK!

marylandnaturegirl · 07-18-2003, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krieger
That is doubtful.

I suggest that everyone who thinks Howard Dean is "liberal" should read the article below (written by a liberal activist from Vermont).

Meet Howard Dean
The Man from Vermont is Not Green (He's Not Even a Liberal)
by MICHAEL COLBY

This drivel dated Feb 22nd! has already been discredited several times. What a twisted bunch of propaganda.

Is THAT all you've got? Surely with BUSH, KERRY, KUCINICH, LIEBERMAN & Gephardt ALL having their teams of paid staffers search for REAL Dirt on Dean , if there was much of anything to be found you'd have been reading about it more recently than Feb 22nd AND it would be from a much more credible source than Counter Punch.

Come on Krieger?

What's the real reason you would fear a Howard Dean presidency? Nader is never going to be president, he couldn't even get the 5% needed for the federal funding thing. Ironic that you'd call Gore a LOSER and not Nader when Gore garned the majority of votes in this country while Nader scrounged up less than 5%! Why did so many people from the Naders own campaign jump ship near the end? Was it because they thought he was out of control and an egomaniac?

Vote for whomever you want. Its your perrogative. Howard Dean only wants votes from people that think he's the best choice.
Just make sure to vote, that is what is important. Please however, don't perpetuate fallacies and untruths.

marylandnaturegirl · 07-18-2003, 11:49 PM

I'll try to post to this forum when I can but its doubtful I'll have time to reply again to this thread.

So, for those that try to distort whatever I've said, I'll say in advance...don't twist my words.

Do your homework, and most importantly don't spend all your time complaining about this and that, get out there and do something to make changes.

Go register voters, volunteer in your community, plant a tree, plant a GREEN tree even,......

what we need is a little less talk and a little more action!

speaking of action, if you want to check out the action in your neck of the woods go to:

http://action.deanforamercia.com and type in your zipcode

Krieger · 07-19-2003, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by marylandnaturegirl
This drivel dated Feb 22nd! has already been discredited several times. What a twisted bunch of propaganda.

Is THAT all you've got? Surely with BUSH, KERRY, KUCINICH, LIEBERMAN & Gephardt ALL having their teams of paid staffers search for REAL Dirt on Dean , if there was much of anything to be found you'd have been reading about it more recently than Feb 22nd AND it would be from a much more credible source than Counter Punch.

No one "refuted" the CounterPunch article. They just posted some URLs to Howard Dean campaign speeches (lol)!

Quote:

Originally posted by marylandnaturegirl
Come on Krieger?

Yes?

Quote:

Originally posted by marylandnaturegirl
What's the real reason you would fear a Howard Dean presidency?

I fear Howard Dean about as much as I fear Jesus, Yahweh and UFOs combined. In fact, what some of us have been pointing out in this entire thread is that Dean would be no different than Bush or Clinton.

Quote:

Originally posted by marylandnaturegirl
Nader is never going to be president, he couldn't even get the 5% needed for the federal funding thing.

And your point is? The reason why people - like me - support the Green Party is because we want a left-wing political party that is free from big business. Both the Democratic and Republican parties are controlled by big business. And you can't simply "take control" of the Democratic Party. Real left-wing candidates never will get the monetary funding (which comes from big business) which is needed to win big elections. That is why the American electoral system is a joke, and that is why we don't have any lefties in Washington. The only way we can move forward is by building an alternative party that is free from the control of big business.

Quote:

Originally posted by marylandnaturegirl
Ironic that you'd call Gore a LOSER and not Nader when Gore garned the majority of votes in this country while Nader scrounged up less than 5%!

Gore is a loser because he was (and still is) a pathetic, right wing, spineless, capitalist politician.

Quote:

Originally posted by marylandnaturegirl
Why did so many people from the Naders own campaign jump ship near the end? Was it because they thought he was out of control and an egomaniac?

Because Gore scared them into voting for him - remember, "we gotta stop Bush"?

Quote:

Originally posted by marylandnaturegirl
Please however, don't perpetuate fallacies and untruths.

Heh, I post the truth (not laughable Dean campaign ads). And I do hope you enjoy voting for Lieberman or Kerry after Dean loses the primary.

dcwolf · 07-19-2003, 03:00 AM

Quote:

originally posted by krieger No one "refuted" the CounterPunch article. They just posted some URLs to Howard Dean campaign speeches (lol)!

You must admit, krieger, it is a pretty pathetic one-sided article.
And I did post a speech he made on behalf of the environment, but it was not a campaign speech.
http://www.state.vt.us/psd/GovDeanTestimony.PDF
Surprised you consider that a "campaign" speech.

Regarding Colby's complaint about the OMYA quarry operation. First of all, the mineral they were planning to mine - calcium carbonate - can be used in ways that is beneficial to the environment. Here's the debate.

Quote:

The result: the mineral is now at the center of a difficult fight pitting two competing views of what's best for the environment. The number of trees that would have to be felled to replace the calcium carbonate in paper could number well into the tens of millions. Calcium carbonate is also used in smokestacks to neutralize harmful gases before they are released, and is a prime ingredient in lead-free paint and asbestos-free ceiling tiles.

Secondly, OMYA hadn't filed any kind of impact report under Vermont's Act 250, so no offical action could be taken favoring or opposing the new operation. So I find Colby's complaint about Dean on this issue extremely dubious. Since they never made a formal proposal to anyone it would have been foolish to go after them!!

On the pipeline that Colby mentions, Dean was pushing for it. But he doesn't bother to mention that Dean did eventually strike it down. He (1)listened to Vermonters and (2)made an informed decision in the end, then stood by it.

From http://www.vtce.org/deangasarchive.html

Quote:

Gov. Dean fields questions, comments from CAT-TV viewers -- Bennington Banner, August 2, 2000

50/50 CHANCE FOR GAS POWER PLANT HERE, Bennington Banner, Sep 12, 2000.

DEAN TO POWER PLANT BACKERS: 'GO AWAY,' BB, Sep 13, 2000

PIPING UP. Gov. Howard Dean vowed to do everything in his power to prevent New York State Electric and Gas from building a natural gas power plant and pipeline in southwestern Vermont.
RHD, Sep 14 2000, B4:2

Dean rails against pipeline proposal for southwest Vermont.
BFP, Sep 14 2000, 7B:1

VERMONT FIGHT MAY BOLSTER PLANT FOES - Albany Times-Union, September 14, 2000.

DEAN DENOUNCES POWER PLANT PLAN. Gov. Howard Dean left little doubt that he opposes a proposed natural gas power plant and pipeline in southwestern Vermont.
RHD, Sep 17 2000, D3:5

And I posted the online rebuttal to the CounterPunch article
(also not a "campaign speech")...

Quote:

he administered a �best practices� agriculture plan that preserves land and water quality; he helped form the nation�s first statewide energy efficiency utility (preventing more than one million tons of greenhouse gas emissions since 2000); and he championed a commuter rail system to lower traffic congestion and pollution while diminishing urban sprawl (in its last report on sprawl, the Sierra Club ranked Vermont as the second best state in America for land use planning).

Some of Dean's environmental education policies and accomplishments...

From http://www.votewithavengeance.com/dean.html

Quote:

And for environmentally-conscious students, the Governor's Institute has a field research program that studies outdoor landscapes through computer application, observational strategies, and technological means to gain a better understand of the natural sciences...

Governor Dean closed 76 of Vermont's leaking landfills during his gubernatorial career, increased the percentage of waste recycling to 40%, and has raised environmental standards for mercury and power plant pollution. He also was responsible for designating many of Vermont's most recent scenic bikeways and forest preserves.

Dean on renewable resources...

Quote:

One of our biggest security threats is our energy policy. The money which helped finance Osama bin Laden's attacks was our money. Because of our dependence on Middle East oil, the U.S. sent money to Saudi Arabia, which was used in part to fund the fundamentalist Islamic schools in Pakistan and elsewhere which teach hatred of Christians, Jews and Americans. These schools have become fertile recruiting territory for Al Qaeda.

In Vermont, we have the highest rate of energy conservation in the U.S. America needs an energy policy which stresses conservation and renewables, including wind, biomass, ethanol and solar. Not only is renewable energy good for the environment, it is a core pice of a smarter foreign policy.

Seems pretty sound to me. So there you go, krieger. The Colby article has been refuted. What do you think?

Quote:

posted by krieger Heh, I post the truth (not laughable Dean campaign ads). And I do hope you enjoy voting for Lieberman or Kerry after Dean loses the primary.

You mean you post half-truths and distortions? Btw, you know as well as anyone that Lieberman is slipping in the polls, and his campaign is in serious jeopardy. Who here has said they would vote for Lieberman anyway?

dcwolf · 07-19-2003, 12:43 PM

In addition to the above, Dean proposed an energy bill that was backed by VPIRG.

Quote:

Governor Howard Dean initially proposed the legislation, which was sheparded through the Senate by Richard McCormack (D-Windsor), chairman of the Senate Natural Resources and Energy Committee.

It passed the Senate but the republican house was trying to block it.

His position and record on SUVs and fuel efficiency, from an interview with Grist Mag.

Quote:

We need to create stricter standards and better incentives for fuel-efficient vehicles. My proposal is to make CAFE standards the same for SUVs as they are for the regular fleet. The technology to do that exists today. Ford will be coming out with a 35-mile-per-gallon, hybrid-engine SUV model this year. Lexus has one. People want SUVs and now they can get SUVs and trucks with good mileage standards. The CAFE standard would force a significant portion of the fleet to be hybrids in order to meet the average. I was one of four governors that had a standard requiring a certain percentage of cars sold in our state to be electric vehicles.

I noticed these facts didn't make it into the Colby article.

07-18-2003, 11:49 PM	#77
marylandnaturegirl Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Washington DC Metro Area Posts: 151	Posts I'll try to post to this forum when I can but its doubtful I'll have time to reply again to this thread. So, for those that try to distort whatever I've said, I'll say in advance...don't twist my words. Do your homework, and most importantly don't spend all your time complaining about this and that, get out there and do something to make changes. Go register voters, volunteer in your community, plant a tree, plant a GREEN tree even,...... what we need is a little less talk and a little more action! speaking of action, if you want to check out the action in your neck of the woods go to: http://action.deanforamercia.com and type in your zipcode

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07-18-2003, 09:15 AM	#73
Tigermilk Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Jorja, USA Posts: 920	A thought occured to me as I was reading this thread. The people get the government they deserve Is that an old saying, or did I make that up? I am, BTW, a Brit whose own country is being fucked over by Blair, Bush's little Yes-man (and I voted for the bastard, I am sad to say).

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