Loren Pechtel

Bad math.

In general, insurance is a bad investment. You should expect to on average pay in more than you get out. This is normal. Insurance is not in the investment business (other than in the old days the favorable tax treatment of life insurance made for some "insurance" that really was a means of using the tax loophole. The IRS closed that years ago.) Insurance is in the business of covering the situation if you are the one that gets the bad luck and have bills well above the average.

Therefore one does *NOT* look at the premium vs average payout. You look at the highest expected payout--can you afford it from savings? If so, skip the insurance. If not, buy it. (Note that the tax situation can change this. I take my employer's dental coverage because it's paid with pre-tax dollars whereas I would pay the dentist with post-tax dollars.)

keyser_soze

You seriously need to see a financial counselor, and learn some investment basics. If you put in 1400 dollars a month, in even a low end mutual fund, let alone a decent one(I used fidelity myself) you will be seeing WAY over 58k. One of my investments typically went upward, while the rest of the market dived....Do your research. On the side of investments vs. insurance? Not even close, I've seen two million in bills for people...You are not going to get that by savings...

twisted brother

1. The insurance companies can and will re-define, slip through a loophole, or delay your benefits any way that they can without getting caught (legal or not). If you don't think it is deceptive or loopholing for them to get around paying for the medecine you need, then you are indeed naive. If you are fighting someone who is dishonest, pays bribes, takes bribes, and tries harder to get out of something than they would have to try to do it, you need to either lay down like a sheep and be run over, or start dodging the traffic.
They lie, cheat and steal at every opportunity. They probably get a better kickback from the drug company for one medicine than the other (they probably call it a discount or something). Or they have hired a medical team to determine their preferred conclusion. They are the tobacco industry of the new millenium.
What is your moral choice if you determine that your enemy is evil and deceptive.
The nurse wanted what was best for you. You could have said, "oh, yes, side effects, yes, i get sick when i take the Claritin, terrible headaches, etc." Because you do indeed get sick, from your allergies, and the Claritin does not help. Don't lie, just redefine it in a way they can accept.

2. Insurance sucks. It is socialism that we cannot avoid, and since it is controlled by private sector more than the government, we get screwed. We have to give them exhorbitant amounts of money to both pay for the sick people who need the insurance and to line the pockets of the insurance company executives. Here is Texas, the companies have been whining like spoiled little girls about their need to raise premiums to cover their costs. Let me assure you, if they were not making money hand over fist they would pull out of the state in a heartbeat. In fact, the Department of Insurance (for whom I worked) carefully examines every dollar and dime each company takes in and puts out. The state is charged with ensuring that these companies DO NOT go bankrupt. So not only their own self interest, but the states oversight ensure you don't cost them more than they make.
Of course this is one of the evils of capitalism, which is what makes this country successful - on the backs of the poor and the minorities whom it is in vogue to use (slaves, Indians, Mexicans and Latin Americans). If it takes your suffering for allergies for a few hours, weeks, days or months to make the insurance company executives rich-er, than that is what we give so that we too can have the American dream - to be wealthy and powerful one day.
You give them money - demand some service. Even if you have to demand in their language.
3. Your medical care is *NOBODY* else's business besides you and your doctor. Your medical conditions and what you do to keep yourself healthy is between you and your doctor. The insurance company's should actually show the doctors some respect for a change and let the doctor determine the treatment. They are the peopl ewe choose to trust to heal us. If they are charging too much more for their services, let the government audit the care (with all patient names keep confidential) and determine if they are cheating. The insurance companies second guess physicians on every single little detail of your care. They are not doctors. They pay some doctors money to bless their rules, but they do not make up their rules to benefit you medically. They make up their rules to *MAKE MORE MONEY.*
If the nurse says you should say something on a form that will not hurt the medical care you receive, follow her advice. Just be damn sure when they drag you into her trial for insurance fraud that you remember your stomach cramps.
4. You do have an alternative besides just paying the cash. There is a myriad of old and new over-the-counter remedies, and then there are the homeopathic ones. Try them all. I take a really cheap OTC medicine I get from the General Dollar for far, far less than I would pay for the name brands in the grocery store. Try homeopathy, try acupuncture, try hocus-pocus, try anything that doesn't kill you. You don't have to lie to get medicine that will help you. But you may have to work at it. This is my offer of an alternative to lying. Hocus-pocus - it's worked for Christian Scientists for years!

auto-da-fe

wow twisted brother, that was the most jaded post i think i have ever read. you assume to much. if insurance companies do commit fraud on a regular basis in your state then there are some definite problems with your DOI (of whom you worked for). I have deal with the DOI on occasion, and they are failry effective at minimising fraud. of course fraud exists in the insurance industry, but it does in every other industry as well. can you name a single industry in the history of the world that contained no fraud?

is fraud in insurance more common than fraud in other industries? well that depends on your perspective and what other industries you are talking about, but there aren't too many industries so heavily regulated, so I would conclude probably not.

the fact is, if it weren't for insurance, a lot of peoples lives would be financially ruined (which would lead to many other problems for them as well) when they got cancer, or when ther SO dies, or when they become disabled, or when there house burnt down, or when there car was stolen,or when little susie needs braces, or any of the other myraid of reasons people use insurance.

Fact is, fraud on the part of the consumer is just as likely as fraud on the part of the company. That is why we are so careful and insist on knowing your medical background before issuing you a policy (in response to your comment about it being noones business but you and your doctor). I know I am not going to issue you a 250,000 life insurance policy if you were giving 6 weeks to live yesterday. think about it, if we simply issued polcies without knowing anything about you, we would have to either charge HUGE premiums, or we would go out of business very very soon.

and a BIG BIG part of the problem (especially in Texas) causing such high premiums has nothing to do with us wanting to screw the consumer but more like fraudulant consumers and so called "Jackpot" lawsuits. Maybe if everyone in your state, and indeed the country, would agree stop suing because there bandaid wasn't tight enough (for cites go here, read about some of the most heinous of the lawsuits), or if the trial lawyers would think about something other than their greed, it would not be such a problem. I admit that there are times when a lawsuit is called for (eg., incompetent doctors, or doctors errors), but even then, i don't think loosing your thumbnail is woth $247 million (I am of course being facetious)

LLaurieG

Quote:

(twisted brother) 4. You do have an alternative besides just paying the cash. There is a myriad of old and new over-the-counter remedies, and then there are the homeopathic ones. Try them all. I take a really cheap OTC medicine I get from the General Dollar for far, far less than I would pay for the name brands in the grocery store. Try homeopathy, try acupuncture, try hocus-pocus, try anything that doesn't kill you.

(Laurie) Try staying moderately fit, moderately healthy, and moderate in the "bad habits" category. My personal plan for avoiding medical and insurance establishments:
1) Take a multivitamin, vitamin E, calcium, beta-carotene, fish-oil pill, and an aspirin every day without fail.
2) Stay moderately physically fit and don't get overweight.
3) Try to avoid eating much processed food, artificial preservatives, fried food. I stick to beer & wine and go light on eating fatty foods and heavy meats. I don't smoke (cigarettes, heh.)
4) Personally I try to spend some time outdoors every day. People weren't born to live under a roof.
5) I grow vegetables and fruit in my backyard. Gardening is great light exercise you can do till you're old, and really tastes better than storebought.

To Mega-Dave, who doesn't think insurance companies are greedy rip-off outfits, a question, and I dare you to answer honestly here. What percentage profit did YOUR insurance company make last year?

auto-da-fe

HEHEHEHE I'm sorry LLauraG, but I think that my company is not a very good example of this. I work for the company that last year filed for the 4th largest bankruptcy in America's history (although this is VERY misleading, this is how it was reported in the media, and it supports my point. We actually aren't anywhere near the 4th largest, because only one division declared bankruptcy, and they only control a portion of the money, but nonetheless, my company did file for bankruptcy last year and recently posted a HUGE loss).

MortalWombat

He said 1400 per year, but his calculations were still a little off, assuming 2.2% interest per year.

Let's assume that he puts in $1400 per year into an account at 2.2% interest, compounded annually, to keep it simple (because interest rates fluctuate in reality, and in addition, he would actually be putting in more per year every year if he were to keep up with insurance premium increases, but lets assume a flat $1400 and a flat 2.2% for simplicity).

If he puts $1400 in on Jan 1 of each year, then at the end of the first year, he would have $1430.80. ($1400 X 1.022)

Then on Jan 1 of the second year, he puts in another $1400, and at the end of the second year, he would have ($1400 + $1430.80) X 1.022 = $2862.28

So keeping this up year after year, after 41 years (which is roughly what 58000 / 1400 is), he would have a little under $92,000.

LLaurieG

Quote:

(MegaDave) ...I work for the company that last year filed for the 4th largest bankruptcy in America's history (although this is VERY misleading, this is how it was reported in the media... We actually aren't anywhere near the 4th largest... only one division declared bankruptcy... they only control a portion of the money...

(Laurie) Why not name the company?? Actually this rather neatly supports MY point, because filing bankruptcy is what big companies do to PROTECT their assets from creditors and lawsuits. Just one division, controlling just a portion of the money, declaring bankruptcy suggests to ME that your company was obviously trying to protect its assets. From who? Lawsuits by patients with terminal illnesses who were denied reimbursement & care until they died?

Boo-hoo for the big insurance companies! Sorry. No sympathy here.

twisted brother

MegaDave wrote:

Exactly my point. One-tenth of the company declared bankruptcy and it was over-hyped as huge but wasn't really.
I'll remember the next time my tire goes flat, I'll tell the insurance company my car was totalled.

And HEY, listen up MegaDave:
I did not once say that insurance companies commit fraud. I said they are deceptive, manipulative, conniving, misleading and work to constrain their service so as to make as big of a profit as possible. They are even so arrogant as to second guess the doctor.
But I never once said they commit fraud. They are far too well lawyered.

I also never said they were worse than any other part of corporate America. Exxon, Texaco, Enron, they're no better.

auto-da-fe

I will not name the company as I am currently at work and do not want to risk anything just for this board. It shouldn't be that hard to google to find out where I work based on the info you already have.

The division of my company that filed for bankruptcy had absolutly nothing to do with insurance in anyway. That particular division issued martgages for modular homes and we kind of got burned on it. Nevertheless, even my division of the insurance portion did declare a rather large loss, and a big portion of this loss was due to higher than anticipated claims, so it is apparent that we were paying out every claim that we are responsible for. I should note however, that we do not sell major medical, only supplemental health. There is a huge difference between the 2. your line of "Lawsuits by patients with terminal illnesses who were denied reimbursement & care until they died?" is not really valid to my situation as what you are implying is referred to as major medical, and as I said we do not deal in that.

I do not doubt that there have been instances of other companies being shady, and downright fradulent, but you should know that there is something like 4000 insurance companies in america (i could be off on this, the last time I saw any statistics was like 3 years ago) and you cannot possible assert that every one of them is crooked. If that were true, there would be a much bigger stink about it than a few people posting on this board. There are politicians that would use this as there entire platform, and probably get elected on it. There would be lawsuits numbering in the millions and millions instead of the amounts of today (which as I said before, are still too many).

It is easy to make sweeping generalizations like "All medical insurers are crooked" but unless you can back that up with hard facts on every company out there, you can hardly expect me to take that at face value. Do the crooked lawyers and crooked lawsuits not have anything to do with it? If you do not think so, spend some time browsing this site.