excreationist

About Buddhism and God...

see <a href="http://om-ah-hum.com/gus_oil_and_water.html" target="_blank">Abrahamic Monotheism versus the Buddha’s Dharma</a>
"...Below I present five striking points of divergence. These are core elements of dogma. Any fair comparison presents the horns of an insoluble dilemma. In no case will we be able to sanely embrace both ideas at once. As rational beings, we must either choose one, or choose the other. Like oil and water, no enduring mixture of the two is possible..."

David Mathews

Hello wordsmyth,

David: The life and message of Jesus prompted my faith in the Bible.

David: Unbelievers are not objective evaluators of religious texts. Unbelievers are not objective because they have invested some meaning in their unbelief.

David: You consider yourself persecuted?

Your atheism may derive from national and/or cultural causes even if your culture is predominantly religious. The atheists responds to these forces in a negative or contradictory way to set himself/herself apart from the "mainstream" of society, thereby acheiving a feeling of uniqueness upon which to build self esteem.

David: To begin with, the monotheistic faiths (Judaism - Christianity - Islam) do claim to worship the same God, the God of Abraham. You are aware of this claim?

Secondarily, the polytheistic religions (Greek, Roman, Hindu) do possess gods but they also believe in a supreme deity, with transcendental qualities comparable to the supreme God of the monotheistic faiths.

Thirdly, the philosophical concept of the transcendental Deity is compatible with the supreme Deity of the world's religions. The mystical concept of the supreme Deity also is compatible across religious boundaries, as attested by the mystics in their response to religions other than their own faith.

Finally, you atheists testify to a single concept of God even by your title: a-theist. You don't label yourself a-yahwist, a-allahist, a-zuesites or a-baalites. You don't have to because when you say "I don't believe in god(s)" you know that this serves as a rejection of one specific, identifiable being.

David: There are not more dissimilarities and similarities among the denominations. The majority of denominations agree with each other on at least 90% of religious doctrines and practices, the denominations serve only as boundaries of fellowship and cooperation between congregations sharing a common heritage.

David: Supernatural events have not died out today under any circumstances. If you listen to believers speak of their relationship to God you would know that supernaturalism is alive and well today.

David: You claim to be better than the mass of humanity based upon your own rejection of the supernatural. If all of your beliefs/opinions/convictions were examined, I suppose that you also have irrational and unreasonable thoughts of your own.

David: Allegories and symbolism serve a purpose in religious texts. The Bible was never written as a scientific textbook. Modern humans emphasize science, but that is because the scientific maner of thinking is young and innovative. Soon enough, science will finish its work and the mysteries of the Universe will still remain.

David: The Bible and all of these other religious texts were not written to provide substantial evidence to support their claims. They were written by believers for believers. The Bible is not addressed to atheists, agnostics and skeptics, therefore we should not expect that it would provide the sort of proof that you are demanding.

I suppose that even if the Bible did contain these proofs, you would still find cause to reject it. Your unbelief does not arise from a lack of evidence, it appears that you are an atheist because you would prefer to live in a Universe without God.

What sort of evidence would convince you of God's existence?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Good Morning lpetrich,

David: I am not asking about one particular God, I am speaking about the general concept of God which is shared by all religions and present in civilizations on all continents of the globe throughout recorded history and evidently in existence tens of thousands of years ago during the prehistoric period.

How did that God-concept originate?

Why did the God-concept reach its present level of dominance and popularity?

David: Therefore, you are an atheist by preference rather than an atheist by reason. You wouldn't beleve in God regardless of the evidence, the concept of God is offensive to your sensibilities and values.

David: I know that you are mistaken in saying that Hellenistic paganism and Egyptian paganism lacked a transcendent deity, I suspect that Norse paganism also possessed such a supreme deity. Buddhism may not have. These are subjects of research.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

rainbow walking

David: God's fundamental law is expressed: Love God, Love your fellow humans. All sins are a violation of these two laws.

Rw: Then your god is a sinner.

I'm guessing that David is not going to agree with something about your reasoning here, rw

love
Helen

No doubt...it remains to be seen if he will tug at that string hard enough to unravel the obvious.

David Mathews

Hello Ryanfire,

David: Man needs the concept of God to explain his existence. I suppose that is correct, though of course you have chosen some other explanation for your own existence.

David: In heaven your soul is with God, in hell your soul is separated from God.

David: Yes, in death I will find knowledge. Knowledge of the boundary between what is known and what is unknown. The radical change of perspective between physical life and spiritual life would dissolve the boundaries between known and unknown. Perhaps all this is imaginary but that will be of little consequence as I will be dead.

David: Humankind cannot solve the mystery. Unless you have solved the mystery: Why do humans exist? Who do you exist?

David: I agree.

David: Yes, this was my point.

David: I have already done so. I have replaced the physical senses with spiritual senses.

David: Are you suggesting that those things which we do not perceive do not exist? Are you suggesting that the only things which exist are those things which we can perceive?

David: The mathematical concept of zero is an abstract concept which was created by the human intellect:

"This thing which signifies nothing, or rather empty space, is in fact zero. To arrive at the realisation that empty space may and must be replaced by a sign whose purpose is precisely to indicate that it is empty space: this is the ultimate abstraction, which requires much time, much imagination, and beyond doubt great maturity of mind. ...

Nowadays this is so familiar that we are no longer aware of the difficulties which its lack caused to the early users of the positional number-system. Its discovery was far from a foregone conclusion, for apart from India, Mesopotamia and the Maya civilisation, no other culture throughout history came to it by itself. We can gain some idea of its importance when we recall that it escaped the eyes of the Chinese mathematicians, who nonetheless succeeding in discovering the principle of position. Only since the eighth century of our era, under the influence of our modern number-system, did the concept finally appear in Chinese scientific writings. ...

This epoch, late in the history of Mesopotamia, saw the emergence of an eminently abstract concept, the Babylonian zero, the first zero of all time, to be followed centuries later by the Maya zero."
(The Universal History of Numbers. George Ifrah)

David: There is the abstract concepts of imaginary numbers from calculus and imaginary time from cosmologists.

David: You place faith in humanity, though humankind has displayed very little merit deserving such faith. Look at the behavior of humans throughout history ... we have never solved our problems and we never will. See the suffering of people worldwide, see the complaints of people in the prosperous countries, see the vanity and futility of wealth. Humans have done very little to deserve this faith that you are offering.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello Helen,

David: I am not threatening Rainbow Walking with hell. Unbelievers who meet God do so harshly because they have not prepared themselves for the meeting and therefore it is especially disconcerting and challening to them.

David: I am speaking honestly about rainbow walking. Rainbow walking knows that I am.

David: I concur.

Helen, would you classify yourself as a Christian? What sort of religion do you practice?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Theli

David...

I think you are right about this one.
It's pretty difficult to find an objective reader.
Although, it depends on what you mean by non-believer.
Does nonbeliever include someone with other religious beliefs?

excreationist

David:
In case someone hasn't said this, the reverse is also true... believers not only have a habit of thinking that God is good and perfect, they also believe that thinking otherwise would result in their eternal suffering (or at least missing out on a ticket to heaven).
Militant atheists might skew religious texts in their favour but people who are more open-minded wouldn't need to do that.

BTW, what do you think about the talking snake in Genesis? I think that according to the text of Genesis, this creature is a highly intelligent talking snake. In Revelation they refer to Satan as an ancient serpent but I'm not aware of any Bible passage that says that Satan was involved in Eden. The Moslem's story has Satan as the tempter in the garden... so what do you think is an objective view of that passage? Would you assume that the Bible is true and therefore it should be consistent and make sense, so that snake would be Satan? If that snake was Satan, why was the snake and its descendants punished? Why wasn't Satan punished? God is talking to the snake as if the snake alone who did the tempting.

HelenM

Originally posted by David Mathews:

David: I am speaking honestly about rainbow walking. Rainbow walking knows that I am.


I have trouble believing that you know him better than he knows himself - but I already said that so I'll drop it now. If he wants to take it up he obviously can. I imagine that he will. I certainly would, if someone claimed to know me better than I know myself

David: Helen, would you classify yourself as a Christian? What sort of religion do you practice?

In answer to the first, yes, I do classify myself as a Christian. Here's the<a href="http://www.calvarymemorial.com/" target="_blank">website</a> of the church where I'm a member - where I was earlier today - fwiw. My church believes in salvation by grace through faith i.e. I'm not a Christian because I go there or because of anything specific I "did" except that I did ask God if I might be included as one of those forgiven through the death of Jesus, one Sunday evening many years ago.

In answer to the second, I try to follow what I believe the Bible advocates in terms of behavior - in spirit not in letter, where they seem to conflict. For example, I would not use the Bible to justify certain kinds of behavior/speech that other people justify because "Jesus did it" or "Paul did it". I think that's a little unwise and somewhat immature.

I consider myself under God's authority although in the specifics of what that implies, I may strongly disagree with some other Christians. I'm answerable to God not them so...I can't get too focused around trying to please other Christians.

But in general I do try to hold to a principle of non-offense i.e. live at peace with everyone as far as is possible with you.

People criticize 'picking and choosing' what to obey in the Bible. But, in a sense I think one has to not to get into what is absurd or obviously inappropriate. People who unthinkingly use the Bible to justify certain behaviors/speech will probably end up behaving and speaking in worse ways than those who simply have a general intent to be kind to others.

Oh, I could have said I follow "Love God and love other people" (As best I can.)

That would have been shorter!

love
Helen

rainbow walking

Rw: It really makes no difference whether you really, really believe that your beliefs have the power to transform your words into truth, or if you just assume that you are ultimately wise and know everything including the basis of my atheism. (shrug) You are free to believe whatever tickles your fancy and just as free to express it. Now if you want others to join you in your beliefs, support them. Otherwise, what’s the point?

I can make up a new face to the mystical magic land beyond reality as easily as you can and I can make it more comprehensible, (although I don’t want it to be too comprehensible, I might be inundated with e-mails of folks wanting to join my church and give their donations to support my cause).

Observe

In the beginning before gods and trolls
There was only Essence and no one who knows
A shadow of things not yet to be seen
A mist without clocks, a mind without memes
Permission was granted by Essence to be
In the beginning of things.

Without hesitation and deep reservation
Essence set out to unfold
First to became something quite necessary
Without which contingencies flee
Next came perfection and wisdom and love
Essence was all of the above

In power as great as his imagination
He stablished his throne with new legislation
Noting the irony, poetry and flair
Philosophy, logic, it was all there
With meticulous attention to every detail
He pulled out of nothing a thing who would care

A light in the darkness, a grain in the sand
A drop in the ocean, he made it by hand
A place in the willows beneath the moonlight
Where laughter and kisses became a delight
The Essence of that never seen, never heard
Color of rainbows and songs from a bird

The more he unfolded the more we could see
With hearts filled with awe as we held the key
Where’d it all come from, why aren’t you like me
With critical analysis we fell from the tree
With no borders to hold us we headed to sea

By murder, by proxy, by magic, by vote
By learning to fly and by learning to float
The Essence of life our only scapegoat
We clawed our way up out of the depths of the mote

Here now we stand with our fellow man
with nothing between us and life
Seasoned and reasoned and ready to go
Stars will applaud and the heavens will bow
As we become the Essence of what we will know

rainbow walking: (copywrited 7/14/02)