Abbasux

I am new here and I am not really sure where to write this so I figured I would post it in here.

My name is Braxton but everone just calls me Brax, I am 15 years old and I was kicked out of my house last week by my dad because I wanted to talk to him about my atheism. My dad is religious and normally pretty cool but when it comes to my viewpoints about God he flips out. I guess I just dont know what to do. Right now I am staying with my aunt and I like it here and I actually wish I could just live here because I can just be myself but I also miss my little brother and even my dad. My dad told me I can't come home until I "come to my senses", he even mentioned devil worship and I am not sure how devil worship ties into no belief in God. I told him I am not a devil worshiper. I want to make things right with my family but I also want to be honest about who I am. I love my dad but I really lost alot of respect for him because of this whole mess. I dont know any other atheists but I have talked to a few at CF and those people are cool. All of my friends and family believe in God and my atheism is not an issue with any of them other than my dad. I dont sit around with my friends at school talking about why I dont believe in God. Its not even an issue until people make it one. I like Christians I just dont have a reason to believe in God. I thought someone here may have some advice for me if they have ever gone through this. My aunt is a member here and CF and she suggested I join and maybe that would be good for me so here I am. Seebs and Marcel over at CF gave me some good advice but I thought I could also try this place. I feel like apologizing to my dad to make things better but I dont know what to apologize for since I havent done anything wrong.

trunks2k

I am sorry to hear about your plight. I wish I could give you some adivce, but I can't, just sympathy. At the very least you're lucky enough to have some place else to stay. I just hope your dad kicked you out for some sort of shock treatment, in which case I would still just stay away. It may sound callous, but if your father is willing to kick you out of the house because of a religious difference, perhaps you are better off away from him. I hope your aunt's house is a supportive environment, and in the long run it's possible you are better off.

I have a legal question tho. Since Abbasux is 15, can't his father get in a lot of trouble for kicking a minor out of the house? I thought a parent has a legal obligation to take care of his or her child (or at least ONE parent) unless he/she goes about the proper legal channels, i.e. setting up a legal guardian, etc. I would think suddenly kicking a 15 year old out of the house constitutes child endangerment?

ohwilleke

You are in a tight spot.

Getting kicked out of the house at 15 is a much more difficult matter than getting kicked out of the house at 18, although parental rejection is never easy. Simply put, you need them for day to day support and for help with things like paying for college long into the future.

Fortunatley, your not on the street and your situation seems stable in the short term.

But, what you do now, in the coming weeks and months will likely shape the next decade of your life, and more. Interita is a powerful force. Your relationship with your parents will not get any stronger is there is no communicaiton with them. The more that time passes, the more people will try to justify their own decisions. You wil, your parents will.

You didn't mention your mother. What is her take on this?

Had the blow up not yet happened, many on this board would have counseled you to keep your mouth shut until you were on your own. Well, that is well past. And, one of the choices you have to make is how much you are going to untruthfully lie about what you believe to get into parental good graces v. how much you think that you can get into a working situation without that. Some people can fake it. I know that I couldn't. It isn't anything to be ashamed of, if you can fake it and have to. Call it diplomacy and move on. (The fake it approach is the way that a lot of children of first generation immigrants live their lives in so many ways, they go on to be just fine, you can too).

I, for one, am wary of suggesting that you leave your parents. Certainly, doing that when your parents are pushing, instead of you pulling, is a different thing. And, it is possible that living with your aunt in the long term could be good . . . I've known people to make similar moves to help their chances at becoming Olympic class athletes or performers, making that kind of arrangement for your principles, with the willing consent of all involved isn't necessarily impossible or bad. But, there is a difference between a mutual physical separation from your family, and exile.

Forcing a return could be dangerous. If you were to come back without permission of your father, even a normally non-violent person could get out of hand. But, covert secret meetings with siblings and mothers that can get them in trouble aren't very promising either.

Even if you are on speaking terms, if you don't simply want to deny your beliefs, I would recommend a thoughful letter to your parents as a starting point. A little Biblical research on the Bible's more positive approaches to mixed religion households (try Corinthians) to show that you are reaching out to you're dad's point of view, along with a fairly succint statement that explains that beliefs are not simply a matter of choice -- that you can't simply believe in God any more than you can believe that the Earth is flat, along with an expression of love and caring, and a clear statement that you retain strong moral values and aren't a devil worshipper, at least will provide clear communication lines and will offer an olive branch which he may take if he wants to.
Throw in an anecdote about how teens and parents don't see eye to eye in the best of times, and how you care about your family, and how if it would make him more comfortable you will take religion out of the realm of family discussion, and you may mend fences, whether you end up moving back or not.

Spoken discussions can too easily go off course, don't permit you to express your feelings in paragraphs, and are more intense emotionally. Letter appeal to the rational mind in a way that spoken words don't.

I don't recommend trying to involve social services, if you can help it. They are well equipped to deal with parents who are drunks, neglectful, druggies, or violent. They are ill equipped to deal with fierce ideological contests between otherwise together people. Life in foster homes is not a good thing. A private arrangement with a relative that is worked out peacably by all involved for a few years can be a workable thing. And, faced with having to plough into a clash between the right of parents to educate children in their own religion, and the right of a teenage child to have his or her own religious beliefs, both of which are forbidden ground for a secular social services system, there's no telling what could happen, but it would certainly not be good for the financial health of anyone but the lawyers involved.

Best of luck to you. I hope this counsel will do you some good.

ohwilleke

I don't think anyone on this board is qualified to say what the law is where Abbasux is, or even with certainty where he really is, or what the real facts are. (And a trip to a lawyer, in the company of his aunt, to tell him his rights, might be a good idea). The situation he is describing is a somewhat unusual one. Runaway situations, and government removal of children from a home are much more common. Most places recognize a duty of a parent to support a child -- but some places, such as Colorado, do allow parents to entrust their minor children to the care of another for extended period of time (up to a year at a time in Colorado) on mutually agreeable terms as long as someone is providing support, and there are probably few places where there is a duty to keep a child in your own house.

Many places criminalize harboring a runaway minor without a parent's consent, but if the parent knows and doesn't object, the situation is quite different.

Summer camps and boarding schools are the more prosiac examples of this kind of arrangement. But, it is also not that uncommon for seasonal workers or people who can't live with their children (e.g. due to imprisonment) to entrust their children to others without formal court process. Probably most children living with their grandparents are in this kind of arrangement. And, in divorced families, it isn't unheard of for the high school aged kids to float from one parent to another to relatives without formal arrangements or even in degredation of court orders often set decades before.

Support can come in dollars and other people, rather than actual "in kind" support in your own home. The powers that be tend to ignore this kind of thing as long as no one gets hurt. Of course, when someone does get hurt, or neglected, or whatever, the powers that be are looking hard for someone to blame.

One of the last sane

It's a sad situation, but I agree with trunks2k, you should stick to your guns and stay with your aunt if she will let you. You should not be the one to back down, and your dad will probably back down soon. He has to come to terms with the fact that you are 15 years old, not a little child any more. Maybe there would be some benefit in writing to him? You could put it in writing that you are not a devil worshipper, that you just don't believe in any supernatural beings. It might help to state your respect for his faith and his right to his beliefs, and that all you are asking is the same from him. Maybe you could ask if you two can just agree to disagree, and not discuss religion at all. But don't apologize, you are right, you have nothing to apologize for. You could say you understand that he may feel hurt that you don't share his beliefs, but that is not the same thing as apologizing.
Regarding the legal thing, I agree with trunks2K there too, I would be surprised if it is legal to throw a 15 year old out. Anyone know for sure?

beejay

Brax-

First, sorry about your whole situation.

Now, I'm assuming you live in California. If so, I think you should contact the California Department of Child Support Services.

Your father has a duty to support you until you are 18, and longer if you are still in high school.


Part of the California legal code

Vorkosigan

One hears about this kind of thing much too often. You have all our sympathies, Abbasux. Keep us posted; you may need a community of likeminded non-believers to give you support and encouragement. Search out a non-believer group in your area, they may know of resources and similar cases. Good luck!

Vorkosigan

scarmig

Be strong there, in your heart and mind. You showed a heckof a lot of courage to bring up your atheism to your Dad. It's unfortunate he didn't recognize your strength, and your respect for him.

I have only one suggestion for you. Tell your Dad you love him. Not "I'm sorry" or "Can we work this out" or anything like that. Just plain old, "Dad, I love you." *Show* him the unconditional love an atheist is capable of.

Claudia

About devil worshipping: make it clear that as you do not believe in the devil either, you cannot worship it.

Do your parents give money to your aunt for your living expenses? They are probably legally obliged to, even if you do not live with them.

I agree, you have nothing to apologize. But try to keep writing contact, with your parents and your siblings.
If you decide not to fake (there would be nothing to be ashamed of), make it clear for your father that it is not a problem of obedience disobedience, that it would be (theoretically, may be not for you) possible to come back to your previous life, but that apparent religiosity would be a lie that you do not want to do because you respect too much your father and his religious belief.

I am sad for you, and I hope you and your family will be able to join again.(

Treacle Worshipper

{{Abbasux}}
I'm sorry for your situation. At least your aunt seems to be supportive of you.

I am not sure that writing a letter that includes Biblical research & so on would be the best way to go about this, because you would be arguing as an equal from a logical position. I think it's unlikely that your father sees you as an equal, and by attempting to engage with him reasonably you run the chance of making him feel patronised, which will make him angry and dismissive towards you, which will not bring about a reconciliation. (I have had a similar problem with my mum (altho' in different circumstances.) Some parents just take forever to accept that their children are growing up.)

I agree with scarmig's advice
and Claudia's:
Some people have mentioned "faking it". A half-way house I found useful when I was telling Xian friends and family I was an atheist was to say that I no longer believed, but that it was possible that I might come back to the church in time. "I don't expect to come back to church, but I didn't expect to leave the church either, and things might change." Even tho' you are sure of your atheism in your own mind, this kind of statement gives your family something to cling on to and makes a period of transition rather than a sudden change.
Anyway, that's just my twopennorth, I hope you find it useful.
TW