harrije

Marx would call the Democrats and Republicans "petty bourgeois socialists." They are willing to adopt the rhetoric, and even some of the means, of progressivism but only so far as (a) it keeps them in power and (b) keeps the masses just happy enough not to revolt.

However, he would not equate the two parties. He would probably vote for one of them, as opposed to a third-party candidate. He was very practical.

He would also point out that the more reactionary the rhetoric becomes, the more emminent the coming revolution (in ideals, if not in overall government structure). That has been the overwhelming force of history: the elites give a little, give a little, give a little, then rather than give more, they start taking back. Then the whole thing snaps and people start losing their heads. Sometimes literally. This shifts everything down a notch on the social ladder; the old elites are left to lick their wounds and a new elite class is born, usually with some fairly substantial reforms in place, then the whole cycle starts again. It only ends when we reach a point where the lowest class no longer has any reason to get pissed. In other words, when everything is equal.

We may not ever get to that point.

However, your friend, like many Americans, is probably stuck with the pervasive meme that communism = Stalinism. Stalin was no more a communist than George W. Bush is. Stalin (and Lenin before him) got into power, decided he liked it, and started doing whatever it took to keep him there. Lie a little here, put a few people in jail there. Meanwhile, the government takeover of industry is a profitable little enterprise for the Party -- too bad about the workers still living in poverty, but them's the shakes.

(Speaking of, if We the People had demanded stock for our subsidies to Boeing, Halliburton, et. al., those would be government-owned industries, too. I wonder just how the corporate environment would change if we demanded stock every time we gave out a government contract or bailed out a bankrupt "too big to fail" corporation?)

The American government is mildly socialist, at least on some issues. But it is a far, far cry from communism, either of the Soviet variety or the original European variety. Tell your friend that social security and medicare are just government Revlon used to cover up the blemishes of unchecked capitalism. When we all wake up one day, we're going to not only have a tremendous hangover (*) but we're going to be shocked at what that pretty little thing from last night looks like without her face on.

I would like to point out, though, that your friend's Libertarian mecca (I'm assuming he's a Libbie) in which government is all but nonexistant, we all live self-sufficiently off the land and pay no taxes, and we don't waste money on the old, the poor, or the kids -- that Libertarian mecca is every bit the fairy-tale land that Marx's Communist utopia is. It sounds like a grand idea if you live out in the middle of nowhere, but it would utterly fail as a model for getting along in society with a large and diverse group of people.

(*) Marx's analogy. He is a remarkably witty and fun read, even if you disagree with his politics, economics, philosophy, or history. Only the first two are really controversial, though, so you shouldn't lose your lunch while reading him.

Henry-Finland

Hi!
You forgot the stamps and the post office. Those fuckers are governmental. Everyone should have the right to draw his own stamp.
Also the libraries ! There these commie-plants learn to read all kind of books! Free! On the cost of the hard-working tax-payers!

Also the streets should be privatized! Walk here, pay a dime to the guy with an automat in the next corner!
Asphalt is expensive! Commies drag their feet on the asphalt laid by our anchestors!
Hang them high!

Texas should be given back to Mexico because the pinky Bush does not understand the very essence of demo-teo-right-wingism! [New word].



Henry

meritocrat

I agree with you.

If the Republicans and Democrats were truly communist they'd advocate the overthrow of capitalism.

Sakpo

Can you really not see how he was making a point highly relevant to your question? You can take any two political viewpoints, including ones that are drastically different, and make it sound like they are practically the same thing by ignoring the crucial differences and overstating certain, often insignificant (especially in light of the ignored differences), similarites. His point was that that was what Tex was doing. I mean, really, you've had replies directly responding to to the question, copernicus's answer was worthwhile as well. It's hardly as if this is some difficult question on which we must force ourselves to focus... the answer is extremely obvious.

Evangelion

It struck me later, but I was only just back from work and the server was down by that time.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Heck, I even made this clear enough in my OP.

Sure thing. I wasn't complaining about anybody else's response.

I know it is. That's what frustrates me most about the guy I am currently dealing with. :banghead:

Silent Acorns

I agree with everyone else here that your Texan is a jingoist idiot who knows far more about adding color to html than he does about political philosophy. His "argument" is little more than:

1) Communists are to the left of me on the political spectrum
2) Democrats are to the left of me on the political spectrum
3) Republicans are to the left of me on the political spectrum
4) Therefore, Democrats and Republicans are Communists

If that's as sophisticated as his political analysis can get then he's a lost cause.

Evangelion

He reminds me a little of April Shenandoah...

• When the Elian Gonzalez episode was happening I was crazed at the thought that he might be sent back to Cuba. After the fact, I went to Washington to visit one of the senators who generously tried to help the family (I'm keeping the senator nameless because of what he told me).
  
  When I asked specific questions as to why a little boy could be taken by gunpoint - on Easter - from a place that he felt safe - in America? I was told flat out, "Because they are all Communists." Yes, there are a few, very frustrated, good guys in Congress who feel that their hands are tied. Why do you think the Communist led ACLU has so much power in this country? Any president or public official could have taken a stand against them years ago, but, not a word from anybody!
  
  When I was a young girl, my Grandmother told me that one day I would wake up and wonder where America went. She said the Communists were infiltrating our government and that they were going to take over so subtly that we wouldn't even know how it happened. My Grandmother was never wrong!
  
  Consider the dumbing down of children in our failed educational system, the Separation of Church and State - eliminating God from society, patriotism being a dirty word, our amoral society, and most everything you can mention being turned topsy-turvy from what it started out to be.
  
  This did not just happen! It was created by a decided and determined plan, many years ago. When the wall came down and everyone was saying Communism is dead and the cold war is over, somehow I knew that rhetoric was only a ploy.
  
  Without knowing any facts, I knew in my heart Communists were busy at work filling their positions in this country. The Marxist psyche knew if they could capture the minds of our children that they would be able to easily takeover within a few generations. If you have talked with the younger generation lately you are aware that many of them now have the socialist mind set.
  
  Source.

This woman is so far right, she puts other paranoid nationalists to shame.

Rush is a Marxist by comparison.

Silent Acorns

I especially liked this part:
and also,
How about, "I'm keeping him nameless because I'm making this all up"?

Silent Acorns

Perhaps the best of all:
With evidence like this, how could anyone ever doubt her?

Why, you'd have to be some kind of COMMUNIST!

:banghead:

Evangelion

Isn't it priceless?

"Fundy Paranoia - the gift that keeps on giving!"