Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Theli · 07-06-2002, 12:28 AM

David...

Quote:

The soul is responsible and the brain is also responsible. I can't draw any lines of division between the two because as of now the brain's functioning is poorly described and not yet comprehended.

So the soul is just like god, it fills the gaps in our knowledge.
But neither of them is proven so we have no reason to fill the gaps with them.

Quote:

Those statements are subjective in the sense that you are speaking about matters of opinion of matters of the mind which are not subject to empirical, objective investigation.

I retracted those definitions from both dictionaries and other texts on the subject. How can they be "in my mind only"? Am I the only person who use the word "real"?
How can you investigate a definition?
Are all words useless since they are "subjective"?

Quote:

God is not real in the sense that physical things are real. God is real in a sense that physical things are not real. Though these two sentences seem to contradict in reality they do not.

Oh, really?
"They do not"
What a striking argument.

Do you have any reason to assume they do not?

Quote:

Because we can live quite well in ignorance. For many tens of thousands of years humans lives without any sort of accurate knowledge of anything, life itself does not require such knowledge.

So, when you drive to work. You don't know where your car is? And you don't need to know either?
Lacking knowledge doesn't mean "no knowledge at all".

Quote:

Knowledge is a luxury. I suppose that about 100% of humans remain in almost total ignorance about the world which surrounds them.

I only know one person with total ignorance about the world surrounding him. Can you guess who?

Quote:

When I read the Hindu scriptures I gain an appreciation for the wisdom and profundity of the Hindus. That allows me to respect and tolerate Hindus as Hindus, removing all fear and distrust based upon perceived religious differences.

You find them wise, but you would never take any suggestions from them?
You know, how much you try to turn this around and show it from different angles you can't escape the fallacy of your argument.

Quote:

You do know that even humans are found with contradictory characteristics. Depending on the environment, a brutal person can even be kind.

What does this have to do with the real/unreal god?
A person cannot be brute and kind at the very same moment.
If a person can be both kind and brute at the same time then these attributes aren't contradictions anymore.

Quote:

I made the definition up myself. I think the definition is a good one which Christians should adopt immediately. Christians are not in need of approval from atheists for their beliefs or religious convictions.

First you say that words cannot describe anything regarding god/godbelief, then you twist already existing words around (mystifying them) and now you are inventing your own words?
So you think that all christians should become closed-minded, and refuse to question their beliefs?
If I was a christian myself, I would be offended by that remark.

Quote:

Theli:
You haven't answered my question yet. Is there anything that can distinguish god from nothing? Anything at all?

David:
I suppose that there is, but I am not in any position to say what that would be.

You suppose.
Well, I think that wraps it up for god.

Quote:

I am merely stating a fact regarding atheism, not criticizing atheism.

Oh, I see... When I describe atheism it's subjective, but when you descibe it - it's a fact.
<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]

David Mathews · 07-06-2002, 04:03 AM

Hello Helen,

Quote:

If you care about your own happiness and you love your neighbor as yourself (the definition of 'neighbor' including the other people here) doesn't that mean you also care about the happiness of the other people who post here?

In what sense does 'love your neighbor' have meaning to you?

I know, I know...irrelevant question...

David: I do believe that this is an irrelevant question.

From the standpoint of happiness, I don't even know the names of these other people and could not make them happy even if I thought that they should be happy.

To be perfectly honest, I think that atheists are -- generally -- unhappy people. Atheists are unhappy because atheism is dismal, absolutely lacking meaning and hope.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-06-2002, 04:05 AM

Hello Helen,

Quote:

I was wondering whether that was why. But he probably thinks he's no more real than you are. So I still say he should care equally, based on your respective 'realnesses' and that Bible verse.

OTOH, maybe his beliefs make him realler, somehow...I dunno. I don't understand his views on what is real and what isn't, very well, since they are new and unfamiliar to me.

David: Yes, it is evidently true that you don't understand my views of reality.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-06-2002, 04:08 AM

Hello 99Percent,

Quote:

:
David Matthews: Of course the only thing that is real is Jesus.

How do you determine this? How do you know this is true?

David: By faith, it is a choice that I made.

Quote:

All humans will die, all stars will die, all galaxies will die and the universe itself ultimately will die.

While I live the stars are certainly real, they exist, while I live *I* am real. That is good enough for me. I wonder why your existence is not good enough for you.

David: I don't really believe that that is really good enough for you. Several atheists have mentioned that death is their enemy and that they want to defeat death. Imagine how sad that must be to be locked into a struggle against an enemy whose success is assurred?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-06-2002, 04:15 AM

Hello Ryanfire,

Quote:

We all believe (1) is true, I mean we're here aren't we? I wouldn't be writing this if it weren't true. So lets disect david's beliefs.

1) Humans exist in reality(real).
2) Humans die in reality.
3) Humans then cease to exist.
4) Therefore, humans are not real, could only exist outside reality. (contradicts 1 and is fallicious, oh well

).
5) Outside reality exists god.
6) Humans only comprehend reality

Conclusion:
7) Therefore, we do not comprehend gods existence. (5 and 6)

8) Therefore, humans must exist outside reality(2-4), as humans do exist in reality (1)

9) Therefore we are god. (5 and 8)

Unless you can prove we do not exist in reality (1), you have NOTHING. And if I must, I will quote you on the statements above. (1-6). You also stated contradictions are necessary (4).

Or..

Do you consider humans to be god?

David: Humans are not God. All humans are real provisionally. God is intrinsically real.

A day will come in which you will no longer exist even though all the raw materials that compose you (the atoms which compose your body) will still exist. On the day you die, your atoms will not mourn your death -- they've been around for billions of years and will still exist billions of years from now.

In what sense do you consider yourself real?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-06-2002, 04:21 AM

Hello agapeo,

Quote:

"David: I talk to all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons."

I didn't ask you for all of them. One would of sufficed.

David: I talk to people because I enjoy talking to them. I argue with people because I disagree with them.

Quote:

"I don't concern myself with the expectations of others and I don't care if what I write makes anyone happy."

Then can I assume that you are a hermit. It must be a lonely life if you don't care about other people's feelings.

David: I am so happy that you care so much about me. You really don't have to, since I never asked for your care.

Quote:

Yeah, somewhat true, since you might favor being a hermit, what difference does it make if you don't care what effect your words have on others. But then, if you care so little about what others feel or think, then why bother speaking to them. They can be such a nusence.

David: If anyone on this thread wants for me to care about you, begin by telling me your whole name and identifying where you live. Without your real names all of you seem like anonymous people to me.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-06-2002, 04:30 AM

Hello Madmax,

Quote:

Some of easily derived positives for atheism could be:

- Its closer to the truth than any theisms appear to be.

- It has potential for forming a good foundation for averting the illogical dogmatism that accompanies many theisms.

- Its the more honest position in that it encompasses the position "I don't know" which is the actual case for many things, particularly the mysteries that theists like to bring up in support of their deity.

- It does not multiply entities beyond necessity which is a well-supported principle of science.

- It offers mortality, as oppsed to an endless immortality. (Which some do prefer)

David: I don't know how you got these positives from atheism. Are these principles contained in the holy scriptures of the atheism?

Quote:

Of course what Dave has missed here in his little attempt to disparage atheism is that what is "positive" is a subjective judgement call. Thus he may determine that there is nothing positive about it and we may determine there are things postive about it.

David: Maybe it is a subjective judgment, but I think it worth pointing out that among all of the atheists here you are the only one who has made an effort to defend atheism's positive attributes.

Quote:

We may also determine that we can derive the same postives from atheism that Christianity does, without the negatives. My atheism forms the foundation for my naturalism and my humanism, from which I derive love and caring for my fellow human beings. It also forms the foundation for my natural pantheism, which allows me to appreciate all of nature and to recognize I am a part of it. The universe is my home - not something I dream of escape from in some afterlife.

David: Atheists believe in love? I find that most astonishing. "Love" doesn't have the authority of a Divine command in atheism.

I suppose that atheists are allowed to hate people for whatever reason. Does atheism forbid hate?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-06-2002, 04:39 AM

Hello Theli,

Quote:

So the soul is just like god, it fills the gaps in our knowledge.
But neither of them is proven so we have no reason to fill the gaps with them.

David: do you really believe that your personality, character, free will, intellect and identity are produced exclusively from the arrangement of cells and interaction of molecules in your brain?

Quote:

I retracted those definitions from both dictionaries and other texts on the subject. How can they be "in my mind only"? Am I the only person who use the word "real"?
How can you investigate a definition?
Are all words useless since they are "subjective"?

David: The questions you were asking are subjective. Find an objective question relevant to the theism/atheism dispute and I will answer it.

Quote:

Oh, really?
"They do not"
What a striking argument.
Do you have any reason to assume they do not?

David: There is no contradiction. "Real" possesses several different meanings and that ambiguity creates the apparent contradiction.

Quote:

So, when you drive to work. You don't know where your car is? And you don't need to know either?
Lacking knowledge doesn't mean "no knowledge at all".

David: While I am driving my car I know where it is, though there may be times in which I don't know (and don't need to know) exactly where I am. When I am not driving, I know where my car is but that its location is not relevant until I want to drive it somewhere.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

HelenM · 07-06-2002, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
To be perfectly honest, I think that atheists are -- generally -- unhappy people. Atheists are unhappy because atheism is dismal, absolutely lacking meaning and hope.

I appreciate your honesty; it is not my experience that atheists are necessarily unhappy. My perception is that they are able to find meaning and hope in life even though evidently you do not see how they can, without God.

love
Helen

HelenM · 07-06-2002, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
David: If anyone on this thread wants for me to care about you, begin by telling me your whole name and identifying where you live. Without your real names all of you seem like anonymous people to me.

Helen is my real name and if you go to my site, linked to in my profile, there is more information about me there.

So, you don't have to care about me but I'm not anonymous so you can't use that a reason not to care. You need to have a different one for me

love
Helen

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