Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Eudaimonist · 07-24-2002, 09:52 AM

It seems to me that David simply wants to get us to validate his prejudices about atheism, instead of thinking hard about what we say in order to achieve a deeper understanding of the subject. He's simply listening for what he wants to hear, like someone shouting and listening carefully for his echo.

Koyaanisqatsi · 07-24-2002, 09:58 AM

Hi David.

I am beginning to have doubts about christianity's devotion to the concept of love and especially the "ultimate love" of their God, which is accepted by christianity.

What I want to know:

Quote:

1. Why does christianity define "Ultimate Love" as "sacrificial homocide?"

2. Why does christianity support or condone "sacrificial homocide" as a necessary condition of their god's love?

3. Does christianity command or advocate "love" in between atheists and christians?

4. Does christianity command or advocate "love" in a universal sense?

5. Jesus encourages hate as a necessary condition of his disciples. Please explain.

6. Christianity--through Paul, primarily--encourages prejudice and bigotry. Please explain.

7. Christianity has no contradictory command against violence. Yes or no?

Sincerely,

Koyaanisqatsi.

(edited for formatting - Koy)

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

07-24-2002, 10:19 AM

David,

Quote:

What I am seeking to establish on this thread is that atheists are just as capable of teaching their children violence and hate, and that atheists are just as capable of committing acts of violence and hate.

They are HUMAN, end of story.

bonduca · 07-24-2002, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WJ:
<strong>Bonduca!

are you asking me?

Sorry but i just want to be sure this latest round is specifically addressed to me before i respond....

</strong>

No, snookie, I just swiped your questions. Mr. M. seems confused enough about atheism to need supplementary text.

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 10:19 AM

Hello WJ,

Quote:

It was ironic because this morning I was thinking about this subject only in a slightly different vein. I was thinking that since most atheists are materialist/objectivists/rationalists, then an actual belief in the power of love is not only impossible, but a contradiction to them.

Otherwise, it seems that one is back to chasing a some thing one truly does not understand, yet it is sought in a most universal way.

Thoughts?

I believe that you are correct in reaching this conclusion. I don't know of any objective or empirical definition of love. Following atheistic reasoning about God, it seems reasonable to conclude that atheists cannot believe in love, nor can they practice love.

Perhaps the atheists here might explain how they came to have their present belief, understanding and devotion to the concept of love.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 10:32 AM

Hello Keith,

I appreciate your willingness to answer these questions. If more atheists would answer perhaps we might appreciate the diversity of viewpoints regarding love/hate among atheists.

Quote:

1. How does atheism define "Love"?

Atheism does not define love. But, I define love as a recognition of mutually shared values. Now, there are different types of love, of course...

David: What is the rational basis for the love-concept among atheists?

Quote:

2. Does atheism command or advocate "love" among atheists?

Believing that there is no 'god', does not 'command' one to do anything, or believe anything else, at all. However, I believe that love is a human emotion, and is thus applicable only within a human (finite) context. As such, love is not eternal, infinite, or universal. I also believe that love must be earned. I believe that 'free' or 'unconditional' love is worth every penny of the price paid.

David: Therefore, you only love those people who are useful, beneficial or offer reciprocal love to you?

Quote:

3. Does atheism command or advocate "love" in between atheists and Christians?

Again, not believing in god does not 'command' one to do anything. Judging people (including loving them) based on their membership in a group is wrong.

David: Wrong?! Where does an atheist such as yourself determine what is "wrong"?

Quote:

A person does deserves neither love nor hatred simply because they belong to a certain group, or have accepted a certain theological viewpoint. A person deserves love only if he or she--individually, personally, has earned it--and no other reason is rational or valid.

David: How does someone earn love? What do you do to earn love?

Quote:

Otherwise, people should be given basic respect, until one has determined that they warrant more, or less, than this basic civil gesture.

David: On what basis do you demand that people should behave in this manner?

Quote:

4. Does atheism command or advocate "love" in a universal sense?

Here I think atheism in general does provide at least a provisional answer. It seems to me that universal love can only be accepted by a person who believes in a omnipresent God, a God who also embodies 'Love'. Atheism, in rejecting such notions as 'God' of 'God is Love', probably cannot include the concept of 'universal love'. This atheist certainly cannot.

David: Indeed. Perhaps this one difference between atheism and theism is sufficient to justify religion and the relative dominance of religion over non-religious viewpoints.

Quote:

5. Atheism does not forbid nor even discourage hate. Yes or No? Please explain.

Aristotle said it best. To paraphrase: "It is easy to be angry. Yet, to be angry for the right reasons, at the right time, to the right degree, is much more difficult." The same situation exists for all emotions. The question isn't 'is hate good', but instead is 'what should one hate, and to what degree?'

David: Indeed.

Quote:

Hating injustice, hating bigotry, hating irrationality, hating ignorance, hating crime, hating intolerance, hating 'hated-for-no-reason'--these are 'good' things to hate/I believe that it is proper and moral to hate these things.

David: Given that those are good things to hate, what are the bad things to hate. How do you distinguish between the two?

Quote:

6. Atheism does not forbid nor even discourage prejudice and bigotry. Yes or No? Please explain.

Atheism is the rejection of the concept of God. One can (easily) reject the idea of God, and still be a racist, a bigot, an irrational hater...an idiot.

David: Indeed!

Quote:

Atheism is not a moral code, and--honestly--neither is theism. Ninety percent--or more--of the world's population believe in God, and we still have war, rape, child abuse, irrationality, anger, road rage, murder, and genocide.

David: That is true but it does seem that religious worldwide do have ethical and moral codes which are imposed on their followers with the expectation that they will abide by them.

Quote:

7. Atheism has no command against violence. Yes or no?

Violence, like hatred, isn't a qualitative word. Violence is wrong when it is initiated, but right--perhaps morally imperative--when it is used against those who use it for offense, rather than defense.

David: "Violence is wrong when it is initiated"? How did you reach this conclusion?

Quote:

My ethical and political views do not stem from my atheism, but from my adherence to reason. I don't view violence, hatred, anger, etc., as bad or good. 'Good' and 'evil', 'right' and 'wrong' are judgments--evaluations.

David: Is that true for all atheists, or just yourself?

Quote:

A criminal, breaking into a home where a mother and her children are sleeping, might decide to kill the family, to leave no witnesses to his theivery. The mother, upon finding the thief in her home, may decide that she needs to kill him, to protect her and her children.

Both wish to kill. Both may, at that moment, hate the other. Both may thus engage in violence.

These things are not, in and of themselves, right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral.

David: They are not? The criminals behavior is not wrong, bad and immoral?

Quote:

The rightness or wrongness is in the fact that the man was intent on violating the woman's right to her property, and her life, and violating the lives of her children.

David: Is it wrong to violate the property rights of another human? How did you reach this moral principle?

Quote:

What makes the woman's actions moral, right, proper, and good, is the fact that, by violating her rights, the thief gave up claim on many--if not all--of his own.

The woman is thus well within her rights to hate, to engage in violence, and to kill the intruder. (In fact, once she knows that the thief intends to kill her children, she is--IMO--morally obligated to kill the intruder in order to protect her children.)

David: Agreed.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

Clutch · 07-24-2002, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Following atheistic reasoning about God, it seems reasonable to conclude that atheists cannot believe in love, nor can they practice love.

Sincerely David Mathews, you are a hilarious Spam-Bot. The suspense of waiting for this childish non-sequitur has been the only thing that's kept me reading this thread; it was obvious from the start that you were trying to work up to it.

Ah, well -- suspense over, lowest imaginable opinion of Sincerely David Mathews re-re-re-confirmed. Thanks for the giggle, though.

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 10:36 AM

Hello Tristan Scott,

Quote:

1. What is Christianity's position on deficit spending?

David: The Bible neither condemns nor condones deficit spending. Deficit spending is a moral neutral.

Quote:

2. What's Christianity's take on the upcoming Baseball strike? and who do Christians root for in baseball games?

David: I don't care much for baseball.

Quote:

3. Do Christian's believe that Lite beer tastes great, or is it less filling?

David: Good question for Christians who drink.

Quote:

4. Paper or plastic? Where do Christians stand?

David: Plastic.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 10:40 AM

Hello Clutch,

Do you believe in love as an empirical, objective reality or is it a subjective, emotional and altogether unreal imagination of the mind?

I look forward to your answer.

Love,

David Mathews

bonduca · 07-24-2002, 11:59 AM

Keith Russell:

Believing that there is no 'god', does not 'command' one to do anything, or believe anything else, at all. However, I believe that love is a human emotion, and is thus applicable only within a human (finite) context. As such, love is not eternal, infinite, or universal. I also believe that love must be earned. I believe that 'free' or 'unconditional' love is worth every penny of the price paid.
--------------------------

David: Therefore, you only love those people who are useful, beneficial or offer reciprocal love to you?
--------------------------
Keith Russell:
Again, not believing in god does not 'command' one to do anything. Judging people (including loving them) based on their membership in a group is wrong.

--------------------------
David: Wrong?! Where does an atheist such as yourself determine what is "wrong"?
--------------------------
David: Following atheistic reasoning about God, it seems reasonable to conclude that atheists cannot believe in love, nor can they practice love.

I think dialogue with David Mathews is a waste of time.

He appears to think atheists are some sort of amoral subhuman alien beings, and whatever they say will be translated through the filter of his prejudice.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

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07-24-2002, 09:52 AM	#51
Eudaimonist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sundsvall, Sweden Posts: 3,159	It seems to me that David simply wants to get us to validate his prejudices about atheism, instead of thinking hard about what we say in order to achieve a deeper understanding of the subject. He's simply listening for what he wants to hear, like someone shouting and listening carefully for his echo.

07-24-2002, 10:40 AM	#59
David Mathews Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 622	Hello Clutch, Do you believe in love as an empirical, objective reality or is it a subjective, emotional and altogether unreal imagination of the mind? I look forward to your answer. Love, David Mathews

07-24-2002, 11:59 AM	#60
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	Keith Russell: Believing that there is no 'god', does not 'command' one to do anything, or believe anything else, at all. However, I believe that love is a human emotion, and is thus applicable only within a human (finite) context. As such, love is not eternal, infinite, or universal. I also believe that love must be earned. I believe that 'free' or 'unconditional' love is worth every penny of the price paid. -------------------------- David: Therefore, you only love those people who are useful, beneficial or offer reciprocal love to you? -------------------------- Keith Russell: Again, not believing in god does not 'command' one to do anything. Judging people (including loving them) based on their membership in a group is wrong. -------------------------- David: Wrong?! Where does an atheist such as yourself determine what is "wrong"? -------------------------- David: Following atheistic reasoning about God, it seems reasonable to conclude that atheists cannot believe in love, nor can they practice love. I think dialogue with David Mathews is a waste of time. He appears to think atheists are some sort of amoral subhuman alien beings, and whatever they say will be translated through the filter of his prejudice. [ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

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