jpbrooks

what I don't understand is why Paganism places so much emphasis on the psychology of "initiation". I admit that I know next to nothing about "initiation" right now, but I hear this subject being discussed so frequently by certain Pagans that I am beginning to think that it must be a fundamental issue.

-John Phillip Brooks

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: jpbrooks ]</p>

brighid

Inititation varies from group to group. My initiation ceremony was very deep and emotional, but my initiation process was not as structured, as was the case with Bree. I think there is a strong emphasis put on this process for a number of reasons. It weeds out those people who really aren’t serious about pursuing a Pagan path. A lot of people seek paganism out thinking some magical spell is going to make them rich, thinner, and attract that ideal mate – but soon they learn that this is not the case and that they must work on themselves and take action to get those things. Some even come seeking more malevolent kind of things. The initiation process also gives the student an opportunity to really explore whether or not this path is the right path for that person. Also, because there is danger involved in practicing Paganism – potential loss of job, harassment, death threats and violence are very real risks and therefore this process is a necessary form of protection. We don’t allow new comers into our group or share our views with “outsiders” unless they have been thoroughly checked out and gone through a process that demonstrates their devotion to the path. The risk of being exposed as a “witch” in a conservative, Republican dominated area is high (such as the area I live in) and I am not sure the repercussions would be all that pleasant or beneficial to my family. The initiation process also bonds the members emotionally to one another and helps create a necessary trust required for ritual and “spell” work. In many ways it’s a right of passage, like a Bar Mitzvah, a sweet 16 birthday, or the grueling years of obtaining a law degree - and the final initiation ceremony is an excuse to celebrate! The different levels of initiation simply mean you are ready for greater responsibility within the group and that you have satisfied the requirements laid down by the coven to proceed to the next level. Finally, there is a lot of knowledge one needs to acquire in regards to lore, and especially herbs – an area I have yet to master, as well as other things! You can’t just jump into ritual off the street and have any sort of understanding or ability to truly participate. It takes practice!

Brighid

LianaLi

Yes. It get s kind of hazy, though, because I would include magic in a sort of subset to supernatural phenomenom. I would say more wiccans/pagans believe in the supernatural, while not all of the former believe in magic. A belief in the supernatural isn't as active as a belief in magic. It's easier to state that one believes in a certain type of phenomenom, ESP, clarvoyance, empathy, telekinesis, ect. than it is to say one beleives in magic, because one has to go out there, do something, a ritual or spell, to establish what magic is, and then observe for themselves whether or not it worked enough to believe in it.

-Liana

Valmorian

</strong>

Well, generally, the common concept of it being a "bad place" your "soul" goes to when you die, if you performed particular actions while alive.

</strong>

Personally, I treat people the way I want to be treated because I feel empathy for them. I know what it is like to be mistreated and do not wish to put someone else through that experience. For me, this is more than enough. I don't need to fear some sort of odd punishment for breaking this moral code.

Indeed, I recognize that both "Don't drink alcohol because it is a sin and the Lord disapproves" and "Everything you do comes back to you threefold" are simply naive and false beliefs, akin to superstitious tossing of salt over your shoulder to ward away evil.

I've just never really seen the point in making up a kind of superstitious saying to reinforce a moral code I already adhere to.

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: Valmorian ]</p>

jess

Val, it looks like you missed my point...


First, hell is never commonly defined. A Wiccan may define it as living with yourself knowing that you have hurt another person. Heaven knows, that can be hell.


Second, choosing to adhere to a code of ethics is commonplace in the professional world. It is hardly superstitious nonsense.

The line itself is merely an afffirmation and a bit of poetry--- no one is forcing it on you.

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: jess ]</p>

Valmorian

</strong>

I think it is perhaps you that have missed my point. The phrase "What you do comes back to you threefold" is without evidence. The phrase "If you sin, you will go to hell." is equally without evidence.

You then asked how I defined hell, so I told you what I was referring to. Then you claim I am misunderstanding you? Were you not asking for clarification on my statement?

Certainly, a wiccan (or anyone else for that matter) can define hell however they see fit.

What I'm talking about is the phrase itself, and the literal accuracy of it, comparing the common Christian belief that good behavior will be rewarded and bad punished in the afterlife with the wiccan rede, which suggests it will be punished "threefold". I find the similarities striking, a promised "punishment" for unacceptable behavior.

</strong>

Again, you are misunderstanding. I never said that adhering to a code of ethics is superstitious nonsense. The phrase, "What you do comes back to you threefold", however, is. There's no reason to believe that this statement is literally true.

</strong>

And yet AGAIN I've never said anyone WAS forcing it on me. I'm not really sure why you insist on beating up straw men.

I have no doubt there are a number of wiccans that take the rede as a figurative saying, and use it in the way you are describing above. However, I've come across a number of wiccans who believe this literally, as some sort of mystical karma. It is this belief I find irrational. There's simply magical thinking behind it.

To say "It's just an affirmation" works fine, until someone tries to use it as literal justification.

Bree

The "threefold rule" can be taken literally if one wishes. However, some pagans choose to look at it figuratively - meaning, your actions (good or bad) never just affect you - in some way, they will affect other people as well. The "threefold rule" reminds you to think about how your actions affect others - in other words, it helps expand your line of thinking to include those around you, not just yourself.

As aforementioned by someone more worthy than I, there is no actual mathematical given that action = 3 x 3(action) - you may see it as nothing but dogma, but I see it as an example of a good way to live - remembering that the world doesn't revolve around you.

Valmorian

</strong>

I agree it can be taken figuratively. Then again, so can any number of other claims. I could say, "Be nice to other people, or 'bad things' will happen to you!" and get the same effect. It would not be true, of course, since performing 'bad' actions do not always have 'bad' consequences for the perpetrator.

</strong>

I would disagree here. While you could certainly read this into it, the threefold rule is pretty plain in its claims. You have to use some creative interpretation to twist it to mean "think about how your actions affect others".

Well, it is dogma, even if it reminds you to live in a way that you consider positive.

Again, I DO understand that many pagans/wiccans use it as a reminder to think about their actions. That's nice. That's great. I'm happy for them. It still doesn't change the fact that the claim it makes is false.

The biggest fault I have with these kind of sayings is that I'll often find people taking them literally UNTIL someone challenges them, then they'll make claims as you have above. Just look above at the post that theorizes that casting a love spell on someone may make you hate them three times as much!

jpbrooks

Yes. I think they become discouraged by the amount of work that is actually involved in performing spells.
Personally, I am simply trying to learn as much as I can about the reality in which I live so as to become more "in harmony" with it.

-John Phillip Brooks

brighid

John,

Yes, there is certainly A LOT of work in it, and so many things to remember. I think your idea of living in harmony with “it” is a great way to approach life! I feel very much the same way but often get caught up in a lot of the modern distractions and trappings. Over the New Year weekend we visited my husbands family and they live in a rural area and own a few acres of land. It’s so beautiful there and we were able to take the dogs for a walk through the woods, after it snowed, while the moon was full and Jupiter and Saturn were bright in the sky. Those are the moments where I feel most at peace and in harmony with myself, my husband and the world around me.

Brighid