Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jimmy Higgins · 07-21-2003, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godbert
Hats off to the Lance, but heads off to those Basque bastards who let Ullrich drag them all the way up the mountain just to outsprint him for the time bonus.
I still think Jan can do it. And anyway, if Lance has less than 43" lead at the end Jan is the real winner to me.

And you probably feel that Adam Vinitari's game tying field goal should never of happened.

Cycling is a team sport. Should we shame Lance because he has a good team? He showed today why he is the monarch of the tour. And let us not forget that Armstrong was hurt alot in the stage when Beloki crashed. That kept him from taking that stage. So I think everything is equal.

Go Lance, about the only good thing to come out of Texas.

Jimmy Higgins · 07-21-2003, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cloudyphiz
nice call.

-gary

Not really. A racer can tell when another racer is feeling well, when they are laying back and when they are hurting. More importantly, Lance knew the field. He didn't fear that breakaway group. And today we see why.

Lance won each time trial last year, right? I could see that happening this Saturday. This might be his last year of racing. So he is going to put it all out. Though, I do wish to see him in Hamilton for the World Championships.

Godbert · 07-21-2003, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins
And you probably feel that Adam Vinitari's game tying field goal should never of happened.

Don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about, not even the sport you are refering too.

Cycling is a team sport. Should we shame Lance because he has a good team? He showed today why he is the monarch of the tour. And let us not forget that Armstrong was hurt alot in the stage when Beloki crashed. That kept him from taking that stage. So I think everything is equal.

Come on how did taking a shortcut and being on the road ahead of the group he was in (admittedly with a bit of momentum loss) cost Lance 43 seconds? And evidently he would not have taken the stage since he clearly lost the sprint for second and they were not gaining on Vino before the crash either.
And of course I don't blame Lance for having a good team. I blame Leblanc for putting on a team time trial. I want the best rider to win. And yes I would feel the same way if Ullrich was the one profiting fromt the ttt.

Go Lance, about the only good thing to come out of Texas.

At least we agree on that.

Jimmy Higgins · 07-21-2003, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godbert
Come on how did taking a shortcut and being on the road ahead of the group he was in (admittedly with a bit of momentum loss) cost Lance 43 seconds? And evidently he would not have taken the stage since he clearly lost the sprint for second and they were not gaining on Vino before the crash either.

The crash took something out of Armstrong. Its more of a mental loss. Then there was the speed he lost by having to stop and getting back on the bike, onto the course.

Most importantly, there is a rhythm that gets very disturbed after going downhill on a field and having such a dramatic crash happen in front of you. You lose a bit of energy in it too. Your legs tighten up alot and the ole heart beats differently.

I think the incident hurt Armstrong more than you can appreciate.

Silent Acorns · 07-21-2003, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godbert
Who says it's a team time trial (except you)?

Apparently there is a typo in the english page at www.letour.fr

English page:
Stage 19 : team time trial - 49 km, saturday 26 july

French page:
�tape 19 : contre la montre individuel 49 km, samedi 26 juillet

I made the mistake of assuming that Frenchmen knew at least as much English as I know French.

Godbert · 07-21-2003, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins

I think the incident hurt Armstrong more than you can appreciate.

So you think he would have soloed out from a group of six+ top riders (one of them a better time trialer than him) and gained 43s(or 31s counting the bonus) on them in the less than 10 miles of downhill/flat road left? I don't think so. He lost 0.00 seconds on Ullrich on that stage and I don't see him watning to switch that experience for losing 43" in the ttt as Ullrich did.
And anyway, shit happens but the ttt is an intentional distortion of individual results and I just don't like it. I mean Ullrichs team was actually pretty close but what if a contender was in a team that lost 5' in the ttt. He could beat the winner by several minutes individually, win every single mountain stage and individual time trial and still not win the tour - that just sucks, at least in my opinion.

Jimmy Higgins · 07-21-2003, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godbert
So you think he would have soloed out from a group of six+ top riders (one of them a better time trialer than him) and gained 43s(or 31s counting the bonus) on them in the less than 10 miles of downhill/flat road left? I don't think so.

We'll never know, but trust me, after an event like that, perspectives change in the head, especially on a descent. I've been in similar situations.

Quote:

He could beat the winner by several minutes individually, win every single mountain stage and individual time trial and still not win the tour - that just sucks, at least in my opinion.

Now how likely is that? A person that good will have a good team.

Godbert · 07-21-2003, 10:19 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins
We'll never know Sure we know. Armstrong can simply not pedal away from Ullrich unless on an uphill where Ullrich has to carry 30lbs more up the mountain, and he could not even do that that day. If anyone could have pedaled away in that situation (as idiotic a strategy as that would have been) it was Ullrich and even for him there was basically no chance against a group that strong - if it's so likely as you suggest why does noone ever do it?
but trust me, after an event like that, perspectives change in the head, especially on a descent. I've been in similar situations.
I'm sure you have. And of course, after pedaling 100miles a day for most of his life, being repeatedly driven into ditches by redneck texan truck drivers, seeing hundreds of crashes, crashing hard himself just a month ago and having his friend Casartelli dying in a puddle of blood Armstrong probably had not realized he could fall off his bike until he saw Beloki wipe out. Just because you are such a delicate flower does not mean Armstrong sits down and cries every time sth unpleasant happens (please refer to Luz Ardiden finish for example).
I've supermanned off my bike head-first through a forked tree wearing no helmet and it has not made the slightest change to my descending. I've had my best friend in hospital for a week after a face-plant who did not seem bothered and is still not wearing a helmet. And I would assume Lance Armstrong might be just slightly tougher than me and my friends.
Maybe you assume Lance is still in 9/11 mode requiring every single american to be shocked, dismayed and whiny when the perfectly expected finally happens but a tour de france winner is probably more mentally stable than that.

Now how likely is that? A person that good will have a good team.
A good team can still loose minutes. Number 2 ranked team Saeco with #3 ranked rider, Giro winner and pre-race favourite Simoni lost 3' in the ttt even though they had expected less than one. Numbers 4 and 5 right now Zubielda and Mayo are both riding for a Basque team which lost 3.3' in the ttt. Individually they are 2' behind Armstrong. Certainly a top rider riding in a team that looses minutes in the ttt is far less unlikely than your scenario of Armstrong gaining 40s on a group of contenders icluding Ullrich on a downhill/flat road. And anyway I just gave an extreme example to illustrate my point. The likelihood of someone loosing the tour just because his team was not as fast as his rivals team that day might actually be 100% 5 days from now.

cheetah · 07-22-2003, 08:59 AM

Quick side note: What happened to our favorite non-theist sports star? In this MSNBC article Lance is described as wearing a silver cross around his neck!

Silent Acorns · 07-22-2003, 09:14 AM

These are the standings if you ignore the team time trial:

Rider . . . . . . . .Current . . . . . . . TTT. . . . . . . .Gap-TTT
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1 ARMSTRONG . . . . 65:36:23 . . . . . . . 0:00 . . . . . . . . 0:00
2 ULLRICH . . . . . . . 1:07 . . . . . . . 0:43 . . . . . . . . 0:24
3 VINOKOUROV. . . . . . 2:45 . . . . . . . 1:30 . . . . . . . . 1:15
4 ZUBELDIA. . . . . . . 5:16 . . . . . . . 3:22 . . . . . . . . 1:54
5 MAYO. . . . . . . . . 5:25 . . . . . . . 3:22 . . . . . . . . 2:03
6 BASSO . . . . . . . . 8:08 . . . . . . . 1:53 . . . . . . . . 6:15
7 HAMILTON. . . . . . . 9:02 . . . . . . . 1:45 . . . . . . . . 7:17

Agrue amongst yourselves accordingly. The good news is that there will not (praised be the IPU) be a second team time trial.

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07-21-2003, 10:38 AM	#23
Godbert Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 779	Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins And you probably feel that Adam Vinitari's game tying field goal should never of happened. Don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about, not even the sport you are refering too. Cycling is a team sport. Should we shame Lance because he has a good team? He showed today why he is the monarch of the tour. And let us not forget that Armstrong was hurt alot in the stage when Beloki crashed. That kept him from taking that stage. So I think everything is equal. Come on how did taking a shortcut and being on the road ahead of the group he was in (admittedly with a bit of momentum loss) cost Lance 43 seconds? And evidently he would not have taken the stage since he clearly lost the sprint for second and they were not gaining on Vino before the crash either. And of course I don't blame Lance for having a good team. I blame Leblanc for putting on a team time trial. I want the best rider to win. And yes I would feel the same way if Ullrich was the one profiting fromt the ttt. Go Lance, about the only good thing to come out of Texas. At least we agree on that.

07-21-2003, 10:19 PM	#28
Godbert Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 779	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins We'll never know Sure we know. Armstrong can simply not pedal away from Ullrich unless on an uphill where Ullrich has to carry 30lbs more up the mountain, and he could not even do that that day. If anyone could have pedaled away in that situation (as idiotic a strategy as that would have been) it was Ullrich and even for him there was basically no chance against a group that strong - if it's so likely as you suggest why does noone ever do it? but trust me, after an event like that, perspectives change in the head, especially on a descent. I've been in similar situations. I'm sure you have. And of course, after pedaling 100miles a day for most of his life, being repeatedly driven into ditches by redneck texan truck drivers, seeing hundreds of crashes, crashing hard himself just a month ago and having his friend Casartelli dying in a puddle of blood Armstrong probably had not realized he could fall off his bike until he saw Beloki wipe out. Just because you are such a delicate flower does not mean Armstrong sits down and cries every time sth unpleasant happens (please refer to Luz Ardiden finish for example). I've supermanned off my bike head-first through a forked tree wearing no helmet and it has not made the slightest change to my descending. I've had my best friend in hospital for a week after a face-plant who did not seem bothered and is still not wearing a helmet. And I would assume Lance Armstrong might be just slightly tougher than me and my friends. Maybe you assume Lance is still in 9/11 mode requiring every single american to be shocked, dismayed and whiny when the perfectly expected finally happens but a tour de france winner is probably more mentally stable than that. Now how likely is that? A person that good will have a good team. A good team can still loose minutes. Number 2 ranked team Saeco with #3 ranked rider, Giro winner and pre-race favourite Simoni lost 3' in the ttt even though they had expected less than one. Numbers 4 and 5 right now Zubielda and Mayo are both riding for a Basque team which lost 3.3' in the ttt. Individually they are 2' behind Armstrong. Certainly a top rider riding in a team that looses minutes in the ttt is far less unlikely than your scenario of Armstrong gaining 40s on a group of contenders icluding Ullrich on a downhill/flat road. And anyway I just gave an extreme example to illustrate my point. The likelihood of someone loosing the tour just because his team was not as fast as his rivals team that day might actually be 100% 5 days from now.

07-22-2003, 08:59 AM	#29
cheetah Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,118	Quick side note: What happened to our favorite non-theist sports star? In this MSNBC article Lance is described as wearing a silver cross around his neck!

07-22-2003, 09:14 AM	#30
Silent Acorns Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: SW 31 52 24W4 Posts: 1,508	These are the standings if you ignore the team time trial: Rider . . . . . . . .Current . . . . . . . TTT. . . . . . . .Gap-TTT - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 ARMSTRONG . . . . 65:36:23 . . . . . . . 0:00 . . . . . . . . 0:00 2 ULLRICH . . . . . . . 1:07 . . . . . . . 0:43 . . . . . . . . 0:24 3 VINOKOUROV. . . . . . 2:45 . . . . . . . 1:30 . . . . . . . . 1:15 4 ZUBELDIA. . . . . . . 5:16 . . . . . . . 3:22 . . . . . . . . 1:54 5 MAYO. . . . . . . . . 5:25 . . . . . . . 3:22 . . . . . . . . 2:03 6 BASSO . . . . . . . . 8:08 . . . . . . . 1:53 . . . . . . . . 6:15 7 HAMILTON. . . . . . . 9:02 . . . . . . . 1:45 . . . . . . . . 7:17 Agrue amongst yourselves accordingly. The good news is that there will not (praised be the IPU) be a second team time trial.

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